How Good Is A Good CD Player?

[leok]

I happen to have a Philips dvd963 that I like a lot. I suspect that Philips is offering this player at a low price for the same reason Gillette sells razor handles cheap. The 963 plays SACDs and SACD is a Philips/Sony format.

It's expensive to make a piece of audio gear that doesn't distort and often doesn't make sense, from a marketing perspective to achieve low distortion, especially if people will just call it rolled-of or lacking slam. I suspect that the differences between the Rega and Philips, whatever they are, have more to do with sonic and marketing goals than engineering capabilities.

There are two subjects here. 1) amount of distortion and distortion's impact on high end intensity, and 2) differences in sonic approach taken in designs of similar quality and distortion levels.

leok

[wireless]

I'm going to throw my 2 cents in. I've been considering buying something such as a Rega. Meanwhile, last night I grabbed a Toshiba 2900 at Bestbuy for $80 so I'd have something to get by with until I decided.

Got it home, hooked it up and it was clearly inferior. In fact it sounded like crap. To make sure it wasn't just me that particular day, I hooked up my computer to my pre-amp and also listened to my late 80's high end Technics player. Also listened to stuff right off the hard drive of my computer.

There were clear differences in all three. The computer playing out through a Soundblaster sounded listenable - pretty good actually. Clearly better than the Toshiba. The Technics player sounds the best but it skips eventually. (That's why I'm in the market for new CD player.)

In short order, I decided to take the Toshiba back. There was no question that it wouldn't do. They adverstised the 24 bit 192 MHz Dac but they clearly didn't put any money in the whole circuit path. Okay, I didn't expect much for $80 but thought a standard Redbook would sound at least decent if not overly bright. Basically the Toshiba failed in every area - detail, base, highs.

At this point I'm thinking about going with a high end audio card in my computer since it sits close to my 2-channel system. I'll have to do some more research on that.

-Dave

[Daddy Dee]

Arena--

First Congrats on graduation! What will you be doing next?

I have a couple of things to offer for consideration, and they aren't in the area of audiophile CD. Kind of like Forrest Gump saying, "I miighhtt not be a smmaarrtt mann, Jennai, but I know whatt luv is!" Any technical stuff from me would have to be offered with the disclaimer (and confession) that I thought my clam shell walkman CD sounded pretty good hooked up to my system.

Regarding you graduation money, forgive me if I sound like your Dad, (but I am moving my daughter home from college today),

.... One question to consider is lifestyle and mobility. Back in the day, I used to want to pack up my stereo stuff and head out to set it up to have tunes at the kegger or bbq or pool party. If that's up on your radar screen, they staying with a SS amp would be easier. Depends on what you mean by old school Also, if you are a fan of great bass, there are some posts on this forum which would leave one to wonder if the smoother mid and high end (and perhaps less or different bass) of tubes and/or audiophile CD players is enough bang for your buck. The individual listener is the only one who can make that call. again, my disclaimer of not being of any help on making those technical suggestions.

Also, in reading the posts on this forum, there are a few, who have owned up to trying out tubes and still wanting to keep their SS amp, and some have gone back to SS.

One thought here, as far as getting the best value for your graduation money: If you consider the contingency that you might want to trade out your purchase after trying it out for a while, CD or Tube Amp, either one. You are more likely to get your money out on a resale if you purchase used. There have been a few toys I've gotten on Ebay then resold, and occasionally make a buck or two. I just don't know of a way to get your money out of anything purchased new and then to sell later.

Hope you can take some time, even make yourself a nuisance to some high end sales persons to take the time to audition what you'd like. It is awful easy to buy stuff and then think that this purchase does not have that much bang for the buck. There have been times I've traded out a CD player for one that was recommended, and then couldn't even hear the difference I was paying for! Untrained ears, obviously. Well, maybe ignorant bliss!

Have fun checking stuff out! Having fun is the main thing.

Dee

[Colin]

Well, I for one, arena, are certainly NOT in agreement that your $500 would be better spent on a Rega, Amc, or Adcom CD player, or an external DAC, than on a refurbished integrated tube amplifier!

Although I do not know what you have for loudspeakers, because our Profiles DONT LIST THE EQUIPMENT WE OWN, I think that for super and ultra-sensitive loudspeakers, the lush, quick and detailed mid-range of a refurbished integrated amplifier would make a wonderful difference. I too favor the tube versions of digital disc players, but I would wait for a low cost SACD unit that also plays CDs.

In fact, since I realize that most tweaking audiophile are not seeking the sonic 3D illusion I wish to create, I think the biggest improvement that you can make to a movie and music reproduction system that does not have one already, is to add a powerful subwoofer to capture the low notes in music. After the piano recital last night, I realized that there is a awful lot of music content down at the sub-bass level, which most full-range loudspeakers are not capable of accurately reproducing. Wanna make a big change in your existing system? Add a good sub.

[Tom Mobley]

I bought a used original Rega on Audiogon for $350 with book, remote and box. It was advertised as being very nice, when it showed up I was impressed, it looks absolutely new. I also have a cheapie JVC and a pretty nice NOS '96 Nakamichi MB-1s that has a Nak 20-bit DAC. The Rega rolls over them both. The JVC sounds like a $2 transistor radio. The NAK is unable to create the feeling of spaciousness, the bass is weaker, and it sounds harsh on the top end. I believe the mass-market CD players are introducing odd-order harmonic distortion up high, making them sound harsh and edgy. I think the Rega is just plain doing a better job of re-creating what the original music sounded like without introducing the harsh, edgy, ear-tiring distortion that's become accepted as normal.

Money well spent, IMO.

Tom

[NOSValves]

Well I for one would say a Vintage Integrated tube amp would be a hands down my first upgrade. When properly rebuilt and adjusted the Maintenance is almost nothing. These amps do not wear out tubes yearly like some perceptions that are out there. Some require the bias checked and adjusted every 6 months or so which takes a whopping 5 minutes and is what will make the tubes last and last. Most of the amps that show up at my door still have the original tubes throughout and there all still good after 40 years except for output tubes they are usually weak.

I use a $200 Sony SACD and it sound awesome I feel no need to upgrade my CD source at all.

Craig

[arena]

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On 5/7/2003 1:20:11 PM Colin wrote:

Although I do not know what you have for loudspeakers...

Wanna make a big change in your existing system? Add a good sub.

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Klipsch RP-3s

Harmon Kardon HK3370

Sony DVP-NS700P

The RP3s have an integrated 10 inch sub powered by an internal 440 watt amp. Bass extends all the way down to 27hz, so no need for an external subwoofer.

NOSvalves: If I pick up a used vintage tube amp in good condition off ebay/audiogon for $200-$300, how much would you charge to rebuild it? Also I've heard tubes can be extremely expensive to replace. Seems like a tube amp comes with a lot of "hidden costs". Don't get me wrong, I'm open to tubes, my friends all run their vintage guitars (orig 65 fender jaguar, orig 63 mustang) through tube amps, and would never even consider solid state, but even they look at me funny when I mention I'm thinking about picking up a tube amp for my stereo.

Thanks again.

[Randy Bey]

arena:

source, source, source.

The three most important points in your stereo.

Nothing further down the chain will add back what the source doesn't provide in the first place.

Having said that, I think that there is a steep knee in the CD player performance curve. A Rega would be a good starting, and possibly stopping, point.

[sunnysal]

tough question, especially since you are starting from scratch electronics-wise. I wanted the multi-disk feature so I went with changer/DAC and am very happy with that decision even after hearing some higher-end players hooked into my system since then (thanks to my equally audio obsessed friends). no doubt that the MSB DAC can bring almost any transport up into "really good player" territory, perhaps even level with Rega or better...As Randy says it all starts with the source, skimping on anything there get literally amplified later on in the path towards the speakers BUT I must say that the preamp and speakers, to me, can flavor the sound more than the average CD player. If we filter out truly terrible players (like many 1980s units) we can pretty much depend on decent sound emanating from the player. IMO tube preamps and amps will "soften, liquify, smooth, etc." your sound more than a Rega versus Sony player swap. You need to first decide current budget and if you wish to keeping adding, swapping, upgrading later on and with what budget. This can be a relatively short trip towards a really good sounding system or a life long obsession towards "pefect" sound (whatever that is). Think a little about your short and mid-term goals and budget and then better guidance can be given. warm regards, Tony

[Radiohead]

I picked up a used Planet off of audiogon about three months ago. Up until that point I had been using a Sharp model cd player that was originally purchased for me when I was about 12 years old...nearly twenty years ago. The funny thing is that I felt exactly the way you did for a LONG time. I was relucatant to upgrade because to me a cd player was just a cd player. I figured that since I now had a quality pair of speakers, coming from a pair of Yamaha bookshelves, I owed it to myself and the Khorns to try something "better." I read the hype on this website for about a year before I finally went ahead and made the purchase on the Rega. The ONLY thing that disappointed me about my purchase was the fact that I had missed out on a few months listening time with the Rega by torturing my brain with the Sharp unit. Mobile was one of the bigger factors in swaying me towards the Planet. He hyped and hyped and hyped and hyped. I bought my Eico unit about a year and half ago off of ebay based on his advice so I figured I couldn't go wrong with his suggestions for a cd player. I emailed him about the week before I did the transaction telling him about my Sharp cd player. The response I received from him was classic. Sharp, witty, and humorous like always he banished me to the land of unmistakeably bad audio until I upgraded that flaw in my system. The Rega eventually showed up on my doorstep one day and I took it to the room and connected it to the Eico. Powered both on, let sit for about thirty minutes to warm up, pressed play and was blown away. Then a few weeks ago I picked up my McIntosh amps and did the cd comparison with those just for ****z and grins. The Rega absolutely STOMPED all over the Sharp. As a matter of fact...I almost feel embarassed for admitting I owned a Sharp for that long.

To sum up this entire novel of a response here...get the REGA.

[Audible Nectar]

Radiohead's experience resembles mine.

After reading and re-reading recommendations from the forum members, I kept those recommendations in memory, until I stumbled upon the Rega at a pawn shop. Yes, a PAWN SHOP.

The owner told me that it had been sitting there for about six months, which meant that he probably wouldn't mind selling it, so I negotiated away until we reached agreement on it for $200.

Next to my JBL bass bins, it was the best audio deal I've stumbled into in a long time. The reviews don't lie - it will make a difference in your system.

I would also put in a very strong recommendation for the Ah! Njoe Tjoeb 4000 machine - "the fabulous CD player with the funny name". I scored one of these used on the cheap as well (and got a free pair of matched Siemens tubes taboot). Through the Belles, it's audible nectar! Yes, Rega Planet, you've got competition! Also a bonus with the tjoeb: since it uses tube buffer output stages, you can pick your flavor via the tubes you choose. Very cool!

BTW, Radiohead - I dig that sig! Next to "Anarchist", one of the best on the forum.

[edster00]

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On 5/6/2003 5:38:40 PM arena wrote:

The Rega will cost me about $300 more than the Sony, so before I spend that much more of my graduation money, I want to be sure that if I buy the Rega I will be able to hear a significant improvement in sound quality.

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Which model of the Rega are you referring to?

The original Rega Planet can only be found used and should run you in the $300-$350 max range. So is the Sony you are referring to a <$50 player??

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On 5/6/2003 5:38:40 PM arena wrote:

I'm a little skeptical about how much better the Rega could be, it seems like a cd player is a cd player to me. Then again, it's hard for me to believe all the acclaim surrounding the Rega is hype and delusion.

Basically if I would enjoy listening to the Rega more than cheaper players I'd be willing to spend the additional money to get one, I just need to know how much better the Rega will sound.

Thanks.

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As you know, all this is highly subjective. Many on the BB can hear the difference in cables, many can't. Some can hear the difference in x-overs, many can't. Some hear a difference in upgrading turn tables, some don't..it goes on and on. What you upgrade gets you the most "bang for the buck" will be subjective also.

With that being said, I have to agree that upgrading a CDP can make a major difference in your enjoyment in the music. I can also highly recommend either the original Rega Planet or the Ah! Tjoeb series of CDPs.

Keep us posted on what you decide!

[NOSValves]

Arena,

NOSvalves: If I pick up a used vintage tube amp in good condition off ebay/audiogon for $200-$300, how much would you charge to rebuild it? Also I've heard tubes can be extremely expensive to replace. Seems like a tube amp comes with a lot of "hidden costs". Don't get me wrong, I'm open to tubes, my friends all run their vintage guitars (orig 65 fender jaguar, orig 63 mustang) through tube amps, and would never even consider solid state, but even they look at me funny when I mention I'm thinking about picking up a tube amp for my stereo.

Thanks again.

What it costs can vary but for the most part I have yet to see anyone that buys a amp in reasonably descent shape for a reasonable price $200 end up with more than $600 invested in a Scott or EICO completely rebuilt with strong testing tube. Using current productions tubes a Scott 7189 based amp can be completely retubed all 11 of them for $125 but keep in mind this isn't something you have to do most of the amps I see with 40 year old tubes only need outputs and maybe 1 or 2 others the output tubes are what wear out and they take many years to do that if the amp is working right.

Craig