The arrogance of B&W? or Just my imagination?

[bchild311]

So I had a couple of buddy's of mine over to the house today to show off the ol' home theater. One friend of mine is a complete audiophile like myself and has a nice HT himself. He's running the same amp and dvd as me, the Denon 3802, and Denon 3800 respectively. He has B&W speakers though. I've heard his HT and personally I feel the Klipsch sound is more 'real' than the B&W's, though don't get me wrong, they sound great. My other buddy appreciates a good HT but could care less, he's running Radio Shack components for his.

The point - does anyone have a valid opinion of B&W's and are there certain types of speakers of the B&W line that are better than any of the Klipsch line. I'm wondering if those Heritage fellas out there would say that a pair of Klipschorns or La Scalas would outperform any type of B&W speaker. In all reality I've yet to hear a speaker that sounds better than a Klipsch. My ears just love 'em ...

Thoughts? Thanks in advance ...

[garymd]

When we moved to our new house 10 years ago my wife said I could spend up to $3k on speakers to replace the gigantic cornwalls so she could decorate properly. We listened to a pair of $4k B&Ws back then and my wife turned to me and said, "Lets keep the cornwalls." She has never complained about their size since. I don't know what B&Ws top of the line is but the best they had in the store didn't come close to the corns. Not even close!

[bchild311]

SCOTT: Cool, thanks for the reply. You KNOW a speaker sounds good when a woman will give up the look of another for it's quality of sound.

I know B&W's flagship speaker is the Nautilus:

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/Label/Model%20Nautilus

They're about $20K for a pair. I would HOPE that for $20K that they would sound better than Klipsch, but who knows?

[JLL]

I have heard the 20 grand speakers at my local dealer and no they are not better than klipsch. They were hooked up to over 30 grand of electronics with $1500 a foot speaker wire. Ya they may possibly be more accurate but they were boring, lame, dry and laid back compared to the klipsch. I honestly prefer my Rf-3 signature over them. The B&W did sound as big as the klipsch though but they are so inefficient. The size of the sound is the only comparable feature of the BW to the klipsch, other than that they fall short. My klipsch also goes much louder with authority than the BW and I have a yamaha RXV-800 receiver which cost me 800 bucks. I can just imagine what klipsch would sound like on that equipment and in that room.

JOE

[cyclonecj]

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On 7/2/2003 9:18:48 PM bchild311 wrote:

He has B&W speakers though. I've heard his HT and personally I feel the Klipsch sound is more 'real' than the B&W's

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You never said what your B&W friends response to your theater was. Did he like the sound of the Klipsch? Or was he to "arrogant" to say!

[SCOOTERDOG]

I agree. I have heard the 20K B&W 's and yes they did sound very good if you like dry laid back speakers. I am a heritage owner and I love my la Scalas. If I had good corners I would by some Khorns. For that matter if I found a speaker system for 10K that sounded better I would by them. Fortunately I have not. Maybe I am so use to the live sound my Klipsch produce everything else just sounds boring. I'll keep mine and one day I will have better corners so I can buy a pair of big horns.

2 weeks ago I had my Bday party and decided to play one of my new DVD audio discs, The Game by Queen. Once again my HT room was filled with all my buddies drooling and shaking there heads wondering why there systems don't sound as good...Go Figure

[burtlively]

Of course B&W emits arrogance. Trust me on this, I have owned Vandersteen, B&W, Monitor Audio, and various mass-produced speakers. The Klipsch reference series competes with them all. The key is what you are driving them with. It's ALL about the power. Your Denon, as good as it is, will simply not reveal the true sound of your speakers.

I have just finished my reference system. I gotta tell you if you can do something like this for around $5k, this will absolutely blow your mind!!!

B&K reference 50 preamp

Acurus A 125x5

Yamaha DVD-C920

Klipsch RB 5 II

Klipsch RC 3 II

Klipsch KG 5.2

Klipsch RSW 12

M&K MX-90

Monster M850/950/1000 series interconnects

There is nothing like separates. Outlaw Audio makes a great, affordable HT amp as well. You may also want to consider Jolida. I picked up the Acurus as a demo for $600. TRUST ME, if you build your system similiar to this, you will be the envy of everyone who hears your setup!

[bchild311]

CYCLONE: My buddy with the Radio Shack HT said, "Man sounds killer, almost as good as mine!" You know making a joke but complimenting at the same time. At that time the B&W buddy says, "Yeah sounded pretty good." So I'm guessing it's hard for someone who laid down 2000 bones for a pair of B&W's and have it sound not as 'real' as a klipsch stage, to really give a good critique. The ironic thing about this whole post now is that it sounds like I'm being arrogant about Klipsch. HAHAHAHA. Suffice it to say that everyone has opinion's about audio. Klipsch has just won me over. I'd be really eager to hear a speaker that is better or gives me the same warm feeling as my KLF's ...

[damonrpayne]

I have heard a B&W Nautilus home theater owned by a person who calibrates MarcusTheaters for a living. They sounded good but I just prefer to Klipsch sound. Speaker people often aren't 100% objective, we like what we like.

[garymd]

That's true. We like what we like. IMO, if you get used to Klipsch Heritage and listen to them exclusively for many years, it is almost impossible to prefer any speakers in comparable price range. My wife is no audio buff to say the least and as I said before, she couldn't fathom the fact that all those other, more expensive speakers, sounded so weak compared to the cornwalls. If a study was done, I guarantee the findings would support it. And you're right, it's hard for people to admit that their high priced B&Ws don't sound as good as reasonably priced Klipsch!

[dodger]

Greetings:

B7W comnpared to Klipsch? Well that's like comparing Pee-Wee Herman to Clint Eastwood...... Go ahead punk, make mine play....

To note, wives or husbands will pick up the nuances, full sound, pick out any problems etc. as they live with a Klipsch owner.

For some unknown reason, we talk about our speakers more, a good number of us change equipment more, seem to be more familiar with other equipment and have more literature around.

There was a comment about Dahlquist yesterday and I side with the person who owns a pair, they can be nicely detailed, very nice in the "breathy" female voices yet don't make your ears ring from being too sharp. As far as bass is concerned, with the Dahlquist as with the Heresys, LaScalas one can add a sub, just read the equipment lists of both 2 Channel and HT members and see how many have a sub - no issue there.

I also feel, personally, that Klipsch owners truly enjoy their models of Klipsch they own, but are more open minded when it comes to other brands or other systems we hear. The snob attitude seems lower.

So for other brands? Go out, listen and then contact your local Klipsch Dealer. There's a difference between confidence and snootiness. Most Klipsch owners, or those that truly understand Klipsch Speakers don't have to force their opinions.

It's personal prefernce, hearing curves, not spending 20K and through listening as we do our significant others pick it up.

Have a great, safe Fourth, remember all who brought us here - our parents, friends, those who served in their own way and enjoy.

Take Care<

Win dodger

[skonopa]

I did something simliar last night, but on a smaller scale. I was at Best Buy last night doing a Klipsch vs. Bose. vs. Athena listening test. Even at the "budget" line, the Klipsch seem to be a superior sounding speaker compared to other equivlent, or even more costly, priced counterparts.

Klipsch Quintets/KSW-12 vs Bose Acousticmass 15 II: I did thins again, partly because I wanted to re-confirm what I told that one guy asking about the Quintets vs the Bose in that one thread. I found the Quintets to be have more clarity and detailed. They can also easily play louder with little or no distortion than the Bose can. The Bose, to me, sounded like as though a towel was covering the microphone in front of the vocolist. During that scene in Star Wars Ep II where Obi Wan Kanobi is being chased through space by Jenga Fett and son, the laser blasts just sounded so weak on the Bose compared to the Quintets. Also, the bass just was much cleaner and more powerful on the Klipsch. The bass was certainly there for the Bose, but not nearly as powerful nor as detailed.

Klipsch SF-2 vs Bose 601s: The imaging and the detail was much better on the Klipsch. Also, the Klipsch can get louder with out any distortion. Again, with the Bose, it sounded as if the music was being played through a wet towel. It just sounded mushy to me on the Bose, whereas the Klipsch, the band was practically right there.

Klipsch SF-2 vs Athena AS-F2: The Athena did have good detail and clarity, but they were definitly more laid back than the Klipsch. Also, I found the Klipsch SF-2 had better bass response, whereas the Athena definitly required a subwoofer to get good bass.

If you want a good small HT setup - go with the Quintets. They are definitly better than the Bose, and the speakers are not very much larger than the Bose dual-cubes

For the towers:

1st - Klipsch

2nd - Athena

3rd - Bose

[Colin]

B&W loudspeakers

Several things impress me about the B&W loudspeakers. I have listened to the curvaceous B&W 801s dozens of time over the last few years, courtesy of the local Sound Advice/Tweeter boutiques, which kept them in the same room with massive Krell concrete block amplifiers. I have also listened to the 803s several times, courtesy of a local friend, who powers them with the impressive Pass X250 amplifier. I have also seriously auditioned this amplifier in my own home, on my own system, with a dozen loudspeakers and discs, in the last two years. One thing I have not seriously auditioned is the B&Ws in my own home, on my own system. Yet, there are several things I do and do not like about them:

1. At the low end of the scale, in the budget retail audio room, where I can afford to shop, there are not many significant differences between many of the less than $500 price per pair loudspeakers. These small loudspeakers suffer from as many problems as they thrill with low cost musical enjoyment. Expect your ears to wear out long before the loudspeaker does. At this level, few significant differences are found between the Klipsch and the B&Ws.

2. With the internal cross-bracing, that the B&W Matrix 800 series has, they are extremely solid loudspeakers with such smooth curving flanks that they beg to be stroked like some thoroughbred filly. (Yes, you read that right. You can insert any meaning you prefer.)

3. The knuckle-busting quality of their cabinets backs up their stiff yellow Kevlar cones like a fat linebacker helps a tall quarterback. They are a wonderful combination together. The mid-bass performance of the 800 series is amongst the best of the few high-end systems that I have heard. It is taut, without being lean. It is punchy, without being overbearing. It is smooth without rolling off too quickly.

4. The stiff Kevlar and the solid cabinets however, are strong enough to push around most amplifiers. Stereophile magazine wimps out in the face of such a popular brand, saying only that the B&W loudspeakers require an amplifier capable of 4-ohm loads. This is nonsense. The low dips and wild impedance swings require amplifiers that can dominate the loudspeakers like a drill sergeant at boot camp. Or any other dominatrix you care to imagine. Such power, whether it is green-clad or dressed in black leather, comes at a cost.

5. And cost is never far from the tweaking audiophiles mind. No matter how wonderful something sounds, it is always evaluated against the pocketbook. They may be astounding Nearfield Pipedreams or amazing Martin-Logan Statement towers, but when the pocketbook enters the picture, their value instantly changes. Suddenly mere $25,000 loudspeakers, which sound as good or even better for a quarter of the price, are the bargain of the day.

The point of this rambling conjecture, and there is one, is that there a difference between B&Ws, with their enviable features, and modest Klipsch speakers, even if it is only a slight one and not very sonic one at that. The difference is the power requirement.

Loudspeakers manufacturers have to provide their frequency response. Yet, every loudspeaker manufacturer should also have to provide impedance curves for their loudspeakers. The impedance chart paints the other side of the story. It shows the load that the loudspeakers present to the amplifier. This is particularly critical when the speakers are driven by tube amplifiers, or when the impedance curve is wild and low, as in the case with the B&W Matrix 800 series.

Can the expensive, mighty Pass X250 amplifier drive ultra-efficient big old horns like the Khorns? Why certainly. Even with very loud passages in The X-men movie and without moving into Class AB either (75 watts)! Nothing we threw at the Pass X250 required more than a sip of FPLs electric grid. But, can my diminutive, low cost, delicate detailed, flea-powered Bottlehead 2A3 Paramour tube monoblocks drive a curvaceous B&W 800 series? Not hardly. You drop huge Vette engines into small VW Beetles for the sheer fun of it not the other way round.

To power the top of the line B&Ws requires copious horsepower. Hence, my local Sound Advice couples them to powerful Krell beasts. The top of the line Klipsch big old horns however, require a far more modest push.

Yet, properly configured and a subwoofer to two may be required for most music and movie reproduction systems tube powered big old horns can display many of the most engaging features of the very best sound systems I have heard: complete for the cost of just one Pass amplifier or B&W 800 series loudspeaker.

[dougdrake]

Colin - A delightful read, as always! One question, though. I'm a bit out of touch. What's the going rate for a black-leather clad dominatrix these days?

[prodj101]

my opinion on B&W speakers is that they are more of an engineering feat then a sonically impressive loudspeaker (speaking of the 800 line). I have heard these, and frankly I wasn't impressed, especially at the price of 20k. I have also heard them on many amplifiers, yet they never really did it for me. I heard them on a pair of 40k VTL monoblocks (which I don't even believe are availble to the public yet), a pair of 5k VTL monoblocks (both of these are tubes by the way), and lastly a pair of Krell FPB monoblocks. I don't even think that these speakers could be described as "neutral" or "true to the source". Sennheiser HD-600's have a flatter frequency response, yet they still present a much more "live" sound, without sounding colored, which places them closer to the Klipsch, than the bleak and boring sound of the B&W's. yeah, I know comparing headphones to speakers is like apples to oranges, but if the B&W are really this pure sounding shouldn't they sound more like the senn's? And I would think with only the best components pushing them, that they would be as close to musical bliss as you could get (the system with the 40k vtl monoblocks totaled around 90k I think).

[DrPyro]

Very well stated Colin!

After I purchased (and upgraded) my modest system, I still enjoy "touring" the local boutique HiFi stores to sample various speakers and components. I have enjoyed the B&W, Martin-Logan, and Paradigm speakers that I have listened too, but I still come home and listen to the effortless beauty in which the Klipsch delivers my nightly audio fix, all accomplished with much less power requirements.

-Dave

[Ray Garrison]

I used to own a pair of the original series B&W 801f speakers (early 1980's vintage).

In my opinion, no other speaker I have ever owned, or even heard, did as good a job of the "sitting on the edge of your couch with your eyes closed leaning forward falling into the music it just sound so real it's right there in front of you and then you jump and your eyes pop open because you're falling off the edge of the couch and you snap back to reality and you think Wow those are the Best Speakers i have Ever Heard" thing.

*HOWEVER* I was constantly getting so frustrated with them that I gave up, turned (eventually) to Klipsch (after diversions with VMPS honking monsters) and never looked back. What frustrated me?

With any music with any degree of enthusiasm, THEY REQUIRED MORE POWER THAN THEY WERE CAPABLE OF HANDLING!!!

I eventually wound up using a pair of Adcom GFA555 amps bridged into mono (peak power over 1,000 watts), which didn't sound nearly as good as the B&K ST140 or a single GFA555, but they were the only thing that had enough power to get the speakers to dance. And then, whenever I played something like the William Tell Overture, just when the orchestra got really wound up and the music Was Building TO A CRESHENDO the damn things would *SWITCH THEMSELVES OFF* and the little "you hurt me, please stop doing that" red LED's on the front panel of each speaker would light up and they'd sit there mute until I apologised.

La Scalas, Belles, Cornwalls, the new Reference Series, and of course the Klipshorns may not have quite the, uh, refinement of the top of the line B&W's, but at least they play music and let you dance.

[burtlively]

Amen Colin! When you understand speaker efficiency and the value of clean, pure power your world changes. I'm sorry it took me so long and so much cash to realize that!

[easylistener]

Colin

I am with you. I have listen to those same speakers, and they require great amps.

I am a big believer in power. I have 400wpc going into my rf3II, and this is what I fell is required to drive them right. If I had a better amp I probaly could get by with 250. The B's need big mono blocks. I would say around 650-1000 wpc to make them realy shine. There is a dealer by me that has them one a 1000 watt mono blocks and they sound fantastic.

They do have a differnt sound than klipsch. I feel that it takes a huge amount of money to get just a little improvement over what some of you guys have. I am not including my system because I feel that I am still at the bottom of the chain.

In less I win the 200 mill. lottery I will be slowing upgrading in the klipsch line up, because they sound fantastic.

[prodj101]

high power is not the way to go with klipsch unless you're running extreme volume or in a club. there is much more distortion at lower power levels than higher, and with klipsch you never get into the high power areas, so the lower power SET stuff, or class A is often the way to go. this way you have none of the distortion, often a lower price, and a much better sound.