garymd Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 I picked up Greg's Belle today and got to listen to one for the first time tonight. While it's only a single, I could certainly get a pretty good idea of what a wonderful sounding speaker it is. It will be residing with me until Christmas time. I'll be curious to a/b it with a cornwall. Smooth as silk was my first impression. Seemed to me to have a very nice smooth bass response and I'm wondering why so many complain of its lack of bass. I won't really know until I bring it upstairs with my corns but I really liked what I heard. Maybe Moon just needed some tubes! My biggest suprise was the absolute hugeness of it. It seems to dwarf the cornwall. Probably has something to do with the fact that it's on a homemade frame with casters at the bottom which adds about 4-5" to the height. I think Greg will be pleased when he comes to pick it up (that is if I let him in the house). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 The Bell is basically identical to a LaScala. I have no clue why people think they lack bass for music reproduction. I really think most people just see the spec's and assume. Most music very rarely goes lower than what the Bell/LaScala provides. Also if you place them properly I truly believe they go a good bit lower then the spec's say. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Have fun with the Belle. That will be interesting to A/B with the Cornwalls, esp. to contrast the bass. Think that would be the best way to discern a preference for a bass horn or direct. From a response HDBRBuilder had to a post on La Scala's with casters, he said being elevated would diminish the bass. Positioned directly on the floor would improve the bass. Plans to use as center channel until Christmas? Easter? Christmas 2004? Regards, Dee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 As far as the Scala specs, all I know is I have room issues regarding resonating heating ducts and so on. I didn't have these issues with the rf3's. The bass is so "big" it loads up the room, if the room is bright you'll know it. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Craig, I can only assume it has to do with the music you listen to. In my experience, my La Scalas had *NO* bass. Nada. None. Dropped like a stone below about 45 / 50 cycles. Example - if you played "Welcome To The Machine" from the Pink Floyd "Wish You Were Here" album, the very low frequency machine-like resonance that underlies the opening of the song and ping-pongs back and forth between the speakers was simply inaudible on the La Scalas. You could hear the upper harmonics of the fundamental, but without a sub the deepest, throbbing bass was simply not there at all. Another example. On the Saint Seans 3rd Symphony, the opening of the 2nd movement (or the second half of the first movement, depending upon how you look at this work) has an organ sounding continuous, low level tones that range all the way down to 16Hz on certain versions (San Francisco, Davis Hall, on Phillips). These tones provide a foundation for the rest of the orchestra. Again, on the La Scalas, they are simply not there at all. I don't mean to give the impression that there are only a few pieces of music that contain bass that drops below the La Scala / Belle ability to reproduce - these just happen to be two good examples. Probably more that 25% of the recordings I listen to the most often sounded lacking when played on La Scalas without a sub reinforcing the lowest bass (I used an REL Storm). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Ray, interesting post. I have listened to La Scalas in two different places with different tube amps (MC/Marantz). In both cases the bass on Jazz or Rock recordings was rather good/powerful. I think it might be a combination of room resonances and amps used which count for the amount of bass you are getting out of the speakers. With my own Khorns I had some bass with my 300B integrated amp, more with the Eico HF-81, too little with the MC-225, and really powerful bass with the Marantz and the Wrights. Mind: all in the same room and that's why my REL stays idle for the time being...and I am bearing in mind the Saint Saens. Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 " Dropped like a stone below about 45 / 50 cycles." I've only had my La Scalas for a little over a week but I agree with this. I forget what I was listening to but there were definitly a few places where some bass lines were all but inaudible. This isn't an issue for me since I always use subwoofers anyway. I was running them full range just to see what they could and couldn't do. I ended up crossing the La Scalas over to a pair of ACI Titans fourth order at 60hz. That seems to work very well in my setup. By preventing the La Scalas from trying to play the deepest bass (which was mostly inaudible on them) reduced the resonation of the sides of the bass horn quite a bit. And it would also reduce IM distortion that PWK talks about frequently in the Dope from Hope papers. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 drops at 45/50hz? sounds right to me. that's how they are spec'd and how they should perform. as mentioned before, for many peoples listening preferences that is fine. within the operating parameters, 50hz-17khz, you can't get much better IMO. of course there is music with content below 50hz and above 17khz BUT, like I said, doesn't bother me none missing those parts. one can always add the sub if they want that 25-45hz area covered. great speakers, as were the k-horns. enjoy! tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted July 25, 2003 Author Share Posted July 25, 2003 What I noticed most when I first hooked it up was the difference in the upper frequencies compared to the cornwalls. It's a different sound altogether IMO. As "live" as the corns are, the belle is even more "live." The sound from the mid/treble seems to wrap around the entire top of the speaker whereas the cornwall opens up farther back in the listening position. It won't be until I can bring it upstairs that I can do a real comparison but owning corns for 23 years I think I can judge the differences pretty well even in different rooms with different sources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 if they seem a little bass shy as suggested by others, dig them deeper into corners for max reinforcement. regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Gary, My take on La Scala live sound is similar. One thing, I was amazed at how much difference speaker placement made in the room. Huge change in how much bass is heard. Dee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 I can guarantee my La Scalas with my amps go lower then most ! I have them not only in a corner but tucked back in a nice little nook . The speakers are 9' apart tweeter to tweeter with walls on both sides and my 7 1/2' work bench in-between. They really do go lower then 45hz. I will spin "Welcome To The Machine" from the Pink Floyd "Wish You Were Here" later tonight and report back what I find. I can tell you though I will hear it all. I have a KSW15 that reaches the mid 20hz range and can never even hear it when its on unless a crank it all the way up which is ridicules awful sounding. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted July 25, 2003 Author Share Posted July 25, 2003 ---------------- On 7/25/2003 1:56:07 PM DaddyDee wrote: Gary, My take on La Scala live sound is similar. One thing, I was amazed at how much difference speaker placement made in the room. Huge change in how much bass is heard. Dee ---------------- Dee, Unforunately there will be no way to put this in a corner. Also, since it's not even mine, I won't take off the casters. My corns are 10 feet apart, slightly toed in with the sweet seat about 11 feet from each speaker. The RSW-12 is in the corner that I'll put the belle. I may have to adjust the balance to compensate for the efficiency difference. Also, I'll have to wait for someone to come over and help me lug that thing back upstairs. Bringing it down was easy. Taking it back up the stairs is going to be a different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Gary, Thanks for the post on the Cornwall/Belle Comparison. I have wanted to know what cornwalls sound like, just have not heard them. I have a pair of Belles and I got a lot of improvement when I took out the Type 'AB' crossover and built some Type 'A's. Also the 2A3 Moondogs are really making them sing. They seemed a little darker with the 300B amps I was using before. The 2A3 Moondogs make my Belles even more open in the Mids and Trebles. The Belles have plenty of Bass for me. I own a Subwoofer, but I don't use it with the Belles. I am not a Bass freak However, but do like the clear as Belle mids and Highs! I don't think anyone will see my My Belles or Moondogs up for sale for a very long time. What kind of crossover is in your Belle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 It's a "Greg" crossover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted July 25, 2003 Author Share Posted July 25, 2003 ---------------- On 7/25/2003 6:28:52 PM greg928s4 wrote: It's a "Greg" crossover. ---------------- LOL! The "Greg Crossover" is AA. Remember everyone, I'm just the caretaker. If you could combine the cornwall bass slam with the belle/lascala midrange, we'd have a seriously great sounding speaker. Not that any of them by themselves are slouches. All of a sudden I have no life! My wife tells me that all the time. Now my computer does too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhawk92 Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Gary- Don't worry about not having a life. I think my wife mutters the same thing occasionally. Getting to meet you and the family was fun, even though your wife said "Soooo, you must be Rob..." Guess that makes us both nuts. Looks like I'll have to make a return trip to your place sometime to check out the Belle (help you lug it upstairs?), as well as the Mac gear. To the rest of the board...I'll try and get my thoughts about my visit with Gary and his Cornwall/Scott combo up this weekend, with a few pics. Had a great time...really wanted to spend another 30-45 min with the Scott, but I figure mine will be here soon enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted July 25, 2003 Author Share Posted July 25, 2003 ---------------- On 7/25/2003 8:42:30 PM jhawk92 wrote: Gary- Don't worry about not having a life. I think my wife mutters the same thing occasionally. Getting to meet you and the family was fun, even though your wife said "Soooo, you must be Rob..." Guess that makes us both nuts. Looks like I'll have to make a return trip to your place sometime to check out the Belle (help you lug it upstairs?), as well as the Mac gear. To the rest of the board...I'll try and get my thoughts about my visit with Gary and his Cornwall/Scott combo up this weekend, with a few pics. Had a great time...really wanted to spend another 30-45 min with the Scott, but I figure mine will be here soon enough. ---------------- Rob, You needed to save some of your favorites to hear for the first time at home anyway. One of the best things about getting this amp was listening to my favorite tunes for the first time again. It was a fun visit for me too. It was the first time showing off my system to someone who could actually appreciate it. I'm looking forward to your post and to the pics! Too bad your visit wasn't yesterday. I could have used some help with that belle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhawk92 Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Gary- Quite true about favorite tunes at home. I'm certainly looking forward to that. Speaking of pics, do you want me to send you email copies of them? I usually make them pretty small for the forum (6x4.5") which makes them a manageable size on the post. But the camera is a 4 megapixel, so I could send you an 8x10 if you wanted, but might overload your email account. LMK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 A purely subjective remark upon bass as heard from the Heritage line. The bass is far more subtle than typically experienced from most modern speakers including those produced by Klipsch. That is not to suggest that the heritage line lacks in bass response but I do suggest that what the typical modern listener understands as being "good" bass response is based ( no pun intended ) on a manufactured standard that has existed for long enough as to have become a de facto standard. By this I mean that at some time in the pre-Hi-Fi Era it was discovered that the ability of a speaker to reproduce accurate and solid bass was a quality that was not only desirable but attainable as was so amply demonstrated not only by Paul Klipsch and others. This lead in a couple of directions: The one stream was the effort on the part of designers to create loudspeakers that could reproduce decent bass subject to restraints of size,cost,efficiency,appearance etc. Another stream was the desire on the part of musicians to have their listeners " hear" their music with the bass line at live volumes at all times. Ultimately this lead to manufacturers' tending to build speakers that artificially emphasised the mid-bass frequencies - in order to satisfy the public demand for bassy speakers. If that could be done while using lower quality components in less well built and therefore less costly boxes - so be it. Do the math: If I can build a speaker for a cost of $50.00 that on first impression will sound better than a speaker costing $300.00 to build and further if I can sell that speaker to a dealer who will pay me $ 200.00 for it - The odds are that the dealer knowing that he has one hello of a bigger market for a good sounding $400.00 speaker than a speaker that is less likely to appeal to his market on initial sound quality alone that sells for $ 1200.00 and costs him $600.00 +. What's he gonna sell - even if he understands that in time that a percentage of his buyers will eventually come to appreciate the superiority of the more expensive speaker and trade up ? If he pumps the cheaper line and can reasonably forecast sales of 150 units/year/store he can expect a gross of $60K on that unit per store. If he has 10 stores then he can reasonably predict sales in the order of 600K with a gross profit in the order of 300K. The higher end speaker on the other hand has a lower potential sales volume due to its higher cost/price and lower perceived quality ( based on the perception that BOOM = quality). It is therefore reasonable for the retailer to expect that he has a market for perhaps 20 units/yr/store yielding a gross of 240K with a gross profit of 120K. The higher quality speaker therefore is not a contender in the mass market store. The mass marketer cannot - given his high overheads - afford to sell it given the taste,needs and budget of his average customer. Let's face it most average listeners on hearing a Klipschorn pair are no more likely to sacrifice all to buy a set of Khorns than most audiophiles would be prepared to flog the horns - the house -and the family honour -to buy a CART racer even if having the opportunity of a test drive. The retailing of audiophile grade loudspeakers must therefore fall to smaller specialty dealers who can ( to a degree ) expect that his customers are prepared to pay a premium price for a premium product backed by a high level of expertise and customer service. If any of those elements are missing then the retailer will ultimately fail to prosper. That is why - generally speaking - dealers in new heritage line speakers tend to be smaller specialty operators. That is not to say that there are no large operators selling heritage but simply to point out that if you find a dealer stocking the big old horns - The dealer is likely a one or two store operation which also deals in high end electronics and premium quality speakers from other lines. </Pontification> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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