mobile homeless Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Dean's just advised YOU not to bother with auditioning. That YOU wouldnt learn anything more by pairing up your gear to the RF-7. Yes, Dean might have taken a path with the RF-7, but YOU havent. Lordy. His musical taste and usual listening is almost diametrically OPPOSITE of your current listening (or at least most of it, that is, compared to the stuff you have been listing). It's been his own path and ears. Again, if spending over $3000 for speakers, I would DEFINITELY take a chance at an audition. I recommend this for anyone, not just you. The only speakers I didnt audition or hear in my own home first were these very Klipsch Cornwalls. And I had my friend whose ears and experience I trusted give me a report since he was in that part of the state. On top of that, they were $600. That's bargain material for Alnico and Type B crossover CW, something I had been looking for. As for imaging, speaker placement and system setup is a huge part. The room interaction is also very important here. You do have some good gear so placement and room interaction are key. I'll throw up a post specific to this (or drop you a mail). kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Even though I listen to MONO recordings at least half of the time, and one could therefore argure that "imaging" is obviously something I don't really look for in a speaker, I have to tell you my Cornwalls in my room with my electronics and turntable/cartridge image as well as or BETTER than every speaker I have had in this envorinment with the exception of my pair of KEF 102s (and this includes QUAD ESL 57s!!!). I have found that you have to get at least 10-12 feet away from the Cornwalls before they begin to image worth a damn and that 14-15 feet away is optimal. You also have to toe the speakers in just a hair and not get carried away with the toe-in. The "sweet spot" is very narrow with the Cornwalls as well--more narrow than any speaker I have owned. But once you're "there" it's pretty amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 If your cornwalls aren't imaging well, then your setup is wrong! No doubt about it. Mine image extremely well. I've heard quite a few cornwall setups and of course some are better than others but imaging usually isn't a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Disc Posted September 2, 2003 Author Share Posted September 2, 2003 I believe the room interaction in my case is not the issue here. The Cornwalls are 6 feet or more from the back wall and are setup in a nearfield listening position. I actually had determined the listening position when I had the Kg4s in place of the Cornwalls. Right off the start I did notice the Cornwalls had bigger sound, but didn't image as well. My gut feeling is the Cornwall cabniet and horns resinate and at higher volumes, instruments loose their distiction and blend and loose their focus. The bass is not defined as it could be. Others must have felt this way hence the "Secret Cornwall" thread in these here forums. FWIW - The RB 5s image better, and are better all around than the Kg4 speaker. This is with the Kg4s on stands setup as a monitor speaker. The kg4 had a bigger sound, but in all other areas the RB 5 surpassed it. - tb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Disc Posted September 2, 2003 Author Share Posted September 2, 2003 After reviewing my notes on audio terminology, I believe the proper terms to describe what I feel is lacking in the Cornwall presentation are articulation, definition and focus. If there are mods to the Cornwall, such as damping, rope cauke, etc I am willing to explore them. Anyone tried these with any success? Although I feel the Cornwall can be improved in these areas with mods, I don't feel the net result will be as good as going with a newer style speaker with improved baffling and damping. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 I believe the proper terms to describe what I feel is lacking in the Cornwall presentation are articulation, definition and focus. Lord. Good luck. I'll stop while I am ahead on this one. IF THIS is what you have found I dont know what to add. This is SO FAR from what I have found in my own system, that I dont know where to begin. If anything, these are some of this speaker's amazing strengths. Who knows what's going on via your end. All I have to say it good luck in ye olde journey. I was with you a hair on the imaging although I think better results might be gained. But this latest assessment leaves you out in left field, this just relating to my experience. Perhaps at the highest volume with congested recordings, this might come through. OR Mudvayne. But I have to say I havent found a more opposite experience via my Cornwalls. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Well you also have to take into consideration that Dean modified the stock crossover in his RF-7's three times (at great $$ expense) and you have yet to touch a single component in the Cornwalls, they are dead stock. At the very minimum I would add some sound deadening material like dynamat, super dynamat or equivalent to the tweeter and midrange horn. What the hell even apply some strips on the woofer basket as well. Remove the old engine starting caps and iron core coils from the crossover and replace them with some nice Solen's or Hovland's and some air core coils. The cost of the materials to do so would only cost around $150 at best and the improvements I am certain would be very noticeable, or else just sell the damn things and be done with it. I have had the opportunity to listen to the RF-7's on a number of a occasion's but unfortunately always in a dealer type environment with SS gear. They are a nice speaker and do a number of things well, but in my humble opinion they are not even in the same league as a Heritage speaker like the Cornwall. The build quality has been questionable on some (loose panels not glued properly, shoddy workmanship) I want to see how well an RF-7 will hold up in 20-30 years or more. To each his own I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Disc Posted September 2, 2003 Author Share Posted September 2, 2003 Any links on how to perform these mods? Where to get dynamat? >At the very minimum I would add some sound deadening material like dynamat, super dynamat or equivalent to the tweeter and midrange horn. What the hell even apply some strips on the woofer basket as well. Remove the old engine starting caps and iron core coils from the crossover and replace them with some nice Solen's or Hovland's and some air core coils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 I haven't heard them outside of the showroom so I wont dispute your findings but if you like the RF series better than the CWs, I wouldn't bother with any mods as the basic sound, imaging, etc will be the same and you won't be any more impressed by the moderate refinements. I did find that the CWs sound more defined with tighter bass when they are placed against or near the back wall or preferably, a corner so if your room requires a nearfield set up, then you may be better served by another speaker. Besides, there must be plenty of folks around here that can enjoy and appreciate the CWs. - Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Some of the things said in this thread are plain silly. First of all, my statement that it would be a waste of time for Tim to take is equipment down to Tweeter was based on the following: 1) He's been listening to the RB-5's with Wright's & Co. in his listening room. So, he already has a very good idea of room interaction with a Reference two-way and the SET amps. When was the last time an in-store audition told you more than what you found out after you dragged them home? 2) He has familiarity with the Reference sonic signature. Anyone who has even remotely followed my posts over the years knows what I think about the RB-5 in relationship to the RF-7. The Reference signature is the Reference signature -- just like a Heresy carries the signature of Heritage. The difference is primarily in scale and refinement. 3) Reading between the lines from some of Tim's posts in other threads, as well as this one -- it is apparent that he finds the sound of the RB-5 pleasing to listen too. Common sense tells him the RF-7 will offer more of everything. 4) Something also tells me Tim is not set on staying with SET. I wasn't being irresponsible in my advice. If Tim had never heard a Reference speaker, I would never had said what I said. I tire of the posts that are critical of the crossover mods -- as if I did it to fix something inherently wrong. I listened to the RF-7's for a long time in the stock configuration and never once felt they needed 'fixed'. The mods came about when Leo started tweaking, and I thought to myself, "Man, these can actually sound better?" With the exception of one resistor, the values are identical to the original design values. Every part is within 2 -5 percent. In fact, my parts measure closer to the actual design values than the ones Klipsch uses. Basically, Leo and myself applied some Windex to an already fairly clean window. As far as expense goes, it's not necessary to go to the extreme I did to receive some definite benefits, as four Auricaps will do nicely at about $100 total. Hey, at least I'm still using the same drivers and lenses, which is more than I can say for most Heritage "tweakers". I'm not going to allow myself to pulled into an idiotic debate regarding the virtues of the Cornwalls compared to the RF-7's. I've owned both, and certainly spent my share of time behind the Cornwalls trying to bring out the best in them. As far a workmanship goes: A bad batch of adhesive does not make every speaker coming off the line a POS. Incidently, I have several sets of Old Advents right now built out of particle board. They are 30 years old I don't see any evidence of them falling apart anytime soon. Look Ma, no screws! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 So by your logic, if one hears the ProAc Response One SC they shouldnt waste time listening to the ProAc Response 3 as the sonic signature is near the same (despite many times the cost)? Have you ever HEARD the difference between these two speakers? This makes about as much sense as someone hearing the Heresy and thinking they have the same sonic properties and behavior, especially in relating to an amp, as the Klipschorns! I dont trust hardly anyone's ears in here to this extent. Auditioning is a basic tenet. I dont get your logic nor why anyone would recommend not attempting to audition speakers, especially if over $3000! This forum, once again, is a amazing in its statements and turnarounds. And the above from a person that just said the RF-5 has a differnt sonic signature from the RF-7, when the five was criticized for its behavior. So the RB series is MORE similar to the RF-7 than the RF-5 to the RF-7???? When is something going to make sense here? I cant believe that anyone would not totally back an audition. Many of the comments here are just baffling to me (including the comments about the CW). kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Man Kelly it seems like your fighting tooth and nail not to lose a disciple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Nope, I am fighting tooth and nail for him to AUDITION a $3500 pair of speakers, which seems to make sense to me. Personally, I find a lot of the comments not to make sense. Tim and I dont have the same musical taste and that's fine. We had been emailing about getting some PP monoblocks as well and he pops this out of the blue. I thought the PP a fine idea for a second system. I dont agree with this one, however. At the VERY least, he should audition the speakers at the shop, hopefully in a private session or at least with closed doors with something he knows. To do otherwise makes no sense to me. I gave up on the CW after those last comments. Of course, this place has been all about steering people due to personal reasons and alignments whether money or pride, this from DAY 10. You try to take the bad with the good. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Disc Posted September 2, 2003 Author Share Posted September 2, 2003 Kelly, Where are you coming up with the $3500 figure? There is no way I would pay that for RF-7s. - tb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Do I hear $2500? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Disciple? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 The RF-7's retail for $2200 a pair. I got mine out the door for that much. As far as I know, I'm the only person who has paid that much for them, as most seem to be able to get them home for between $1600 and $2000. "So by your logic, if one hears the ProAc Response One SC they shouldnt waste time listening to the ProAc Response 3 as the sonic signature is near the same (despite many times the cost)? Have you ever HEARD the difference between these two speakers?" Uh, no, I know nothing about either one. However, I would say that if the corresponding drivers were made from the same material, both utilized the same quality crossover component parts, and the primary differences were ones of size (bandwidth) and lower distortion levels due to larger drivers -- then I could surmise I would very much like the next level up. I never said not to audition, I just didn't think taking the Wright's and hooking them up to the RF-7's in some ungodly, acoustically disasterous showroom would tell him anything worth hanging on to. I suppose it's possible, but I don't EVER recall saying the RF-5 has a different "sonic signature" than the RF-7. What I probably said was that they are "voiced" differently. The Reference "signature" is unmistakable thoughout the line, however, that does not mean they sound the same in every single aspect. O.K., you heard the RF-5's and didn't like them. So, telling you how great the RF-7's sound doesn't carry much weight. You've heard a Reference speaker and didn't care for it. However, Tim has heard the RB-5's and DOES like them, and if I tell Tim the RF-7's are like RB-5's on steroids -- then he knows exactly what I am talking about, and he can mentally deduce if this is a good thing or a bad thing. "This makes about as much sense as someone hearing the Heresy and thinking they have the same sonic properties and behavior, especially in relating to an amp, as the Klipschorns!" Do you really want to go here? All the Heritage speakers have the same "family" resemblance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Disc Posted September 2, 2003 Author Share Posted September 2, 2003 I called a retail store in Indiana, and left me with the feeling they will make sure I walk out happy and said the price would be below $1800 a pair. Since I would most likely doing a "mods" that tosses the warranty out the window. So then Audiogon is also a possiblity. The RfF-7s there have been going for as low as $1200. -tb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 This forum is all about making things the same or the inability to be able to distinguish the small, subtle differences opposed to honing in on differences. It has been the one thing I have not liked about it from day one. From the blanket statements from the narrow experience to the sweeping conclusions using factors that dont encompass more variables, this is the place. Yeah, I'll be shot down for this but damn if I havent seen it since the first days. Tube amps are distortion machines. SET amps dont work. Vintage is a accident waiting to happen. PArts are parts. Wire is wire. I dont heaar the difference or have never experienced it, thus it doesnt exist. It's been the root of one argument after another. I heard B with A, so B is the best for A,B,C, not to mention D. In addition, B SOUNDS LIKE D, since I heard it with A. Whether it's tube amps, speakers, amp topologies, etc etc, this is seen again and again. Someone hears an amp they dont like, or with their music, or in tHAT room, and the amps is no good. etc. We are all guilty to a certain extent. It's just that some dont even pay lip service to the idea of an open mind or the many variables at play. And then there is reading carefully. Dont even go there. It was a losing battle half the time or more. I just thought further examination was in order, especially after hearing the complaints, which didnt jibe with my findings with the Klipsch Cornwall. Tim, I just hope you give the RF-7 an audition. As I stated in the first post, you might like them and walk out the door smiling. I always thought the RF-7 were more expensive. $1600 surely does sound better than $3000, I will admit that. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Kelly, You need to take a deap breath and relax ! Its not a big deal after all its Tims money. If I was him I would buy something up the food chain in the Heretage line but that is just me. I also would never own a 3 watts amp but that is just me. Dean loves his RF7's and needs a new buddy so let the poor guy have it Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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