maxg Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 If the soapbox is for me I am standing down. I have already said far to much on a subject that really doesnt concern me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 ---------------- On 10/9/2003 7:41:36 AM NOSValves wrote: Well then lets see some loving it and fixing it rather then drag it through the dirt ! For every negative about are country there are many positives in my opinion. Craig ---------------- Hello: I concur. The positives of living in America and being a Citizen, to me, far outweighs the negatives. Win dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassetized Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 yes, we ought to leave the dragging through the mud to W. what we really have to look out for is ******* nazis in the present administration who want to make public discourse treason. i find it truly amazing that i'm agreement with of the hardcore right wing when it comes to civil rights we have given up(willingly or by coersion). yeah, W is a unifier, not a divider! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 ---------------- On 10/9/2003 8:07:34 AM dodger wrote: ---------------- On 10/9/2003 7:41:36 AM NOSValves wrote: Well then lets see some loving it and fixing it rather then drag it through the dirt ! For every negative about are country there are many positives in my opinion. Craig ---------------- Hello: I concur. The positives of living in America and being a Citizen, to me, far outweighs the negatives. Win dodger ---------------- I think I said that about 50 posts ago. In other words, we've come full circle. Thank you for your input Max. It's always interesting to hear an intellegent point of view outside those directly involved. Mark, I respect your opinion (although I strongly disagree) but we can agree to disagree. It's part of what makes this a great country (warts and all). BTW, you know exactly the definition of ad hominem to which I was referring. Win, Well said as always. Craig, You're right in that complaining and doing nothing about it is worthless. Everyone's entitled to their opinion but complaining alone will get them nowhere. Great post 3D. Very well said. I can't remember if it was Jim's amp or Arnold who started all this but I think it's time to go back to audio. If anyone would like to continue this discussion, I'll read every post but I think we've all made our points and know each other's positions. Have a great day everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassetized Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 one day we're all gonna wake up and realize the real reason we went to war with Iraq was to get Bush re-elected (or is that just elected?) i once said that i couldn't tell whether this country resembled the movie "They Live" or "Handmaiden's Tale" i guess i have to add "Wag the Dog" speaking of movies, how long do you think it'll take Arnold's head to blow up like in "Total Recall"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Mark, Will you stop already? I could write a 10 page retort and bash everything you stated but it doesn't belong here. Let's move on already! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 I say: Cold soups are for wussies. shoot them all and let god sort them out. american cheese is yellower than any foriegn cheese. live free or die. the fault lies not in the stars but in ourselves. heehaw, heehaw. ebitda uber alas. renfro where did I leave my wig? tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Mark, you cover so much territory in a blaze it would take me 20 pages to address every issue you bring up. I don't know how old you are, but if you are half as articulate in speech as you are with your writing, then I can't think of a better person to run for public office. However, I think you would do well to surround yourself with a few Moderate Conservatives just to provide some balance and keep you propped up. Just for the record, I was talking to Craig this morning (at 6:30 AM of all times), and he had no problem discussing politics with me. Craig's points with me were two-fold. He felt there was an over-emphasis on the negative, and because so many feel put out by the political threads, felt it was inappropriate to "dive-in" so to speak. We both agreed that the U.S. is not alone in facing monumental problems, both economically and socially. You know Mark, how can we not blame the politicians? They are entrusted agents, put in place by the people, to protect and uphold the will of the people. Whether Republican or Democrat, both have this responsibility. What ever happened to governing for the "general good-will" of the people? I'm sorry, but sometimes I think the Dems are as whacked as the "new" Republicans (fascists). What real difference does it make anymore -- since both parties now only cater to special interests. Most know what the problems are, and some, like you -- can articulate them very well. However, discussion, especially political discussion -- should be centered around finding workable solutions. It is no longer possible for me have these type discussions without pointing out what should be obvious to everyone. The downward trend is directly linked, and follows the moral decline of the nation -- and please, do not begin stereotyping Christians as those who hang on the hem of Pat Robertson's slacks. God never said, "Check your brains at the door" before entering the church, and most of us don't. We have been sold out. What sense is there in blaming Joe Sixpack and wife who spend the day just working their arses off so they can pay the bills? Shoot, by the time I get off work, goof around with the kids a little, eat, and play a CD or two -- it's 10 P.M. Who the hell has time for social activism? "Call your Representative." Yeah, right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Mark, If you were elected president, what would you do to turn things around? If this downward spiral continues, it's certainly curtains for us all. Right? Just for the record, you're too bright to ever get elected. The average Joe wouldn't understand your views or opinions, or care. Right? How does that get corrected? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Gary, it's like everything else, it's based on trust. The economy keeps going because we keep spending money. We keep spending money because we trust it's going to keep coming. If everyone quit spending money for a week -- it would come down like a house of cards. Someone like Mark doesn't have to make everyone actually understand what he is talking about -- he only has to convince them that he understands what he is talking about. Win the trust, that's all it is. Gee, I'm hurt -- you didn't ask me what I would do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tillmbil Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Jim? Are you still out ther my fellow Floridian? Where are you going now with your tube search? When I get my 299 I might be interested in selling my Dynaco ST70. I am hoping Craig has it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Hello: I can agree with Mark, Dean and Gary. We can have a moral decline without being Christian. Using Mark and Dean's posts, I can say that it seemed that most tried to live by the "Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have done unto you." Now to often it seems to be "Do unto others before they do unto you." We can argue why until we lose all oxygen without ever solving the last comment. I have put forth much of it as faceless contact and telephone menus. Craig shows what Customer Service SHOULD be, too many times we just get put on hold or moved around so much that we give up on correcting a wrong. As people we need to demand more Service and vow to get out and vote. If you vote you have the right to complain. For my agreement with Gary, it has come full circle. Most of us have vented, complained and put forth our beliefs. So all I propose, with no feedback needed is that we do get out and vote. If those in Office have done a poor job, vote them out. Does your vote count - yes, I gave the example of a Town Supervisor winning by just one vote. We can demand better service and give better service ourselves. We can take an extra two (2) stepss rather than an extra one (1). Simplistic? Yes, but when the same that we complain about keep getting re-elected, who do we blame. For those with children, a job and taking care of a house it is difficult but not impossible. So the dodger is going about with happy feelings, or maudlin it's my way of working within the world. I complained about some things here and I have to say people were forthright in their statements and opinions without getting personal. To me that's what it's all about. So we seal the coffin shut on this thread with apologies to Jim that we really overlooked the fact that he did not get his amplifier. If anyone feels I attacked them I apologize. It is good that we can differ but still continue on in our journey to finding perfect Audio equipment as we want. Win dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 O.K., the doggie analogy is cool. It's good. OTOH, these "doggies" are supposed to be well groomed and trained already. They are supposed to know what the hell they are doing before they take office. You don't have to whack a trained animal, they do the right thing because of their training. Again, the problem is symptomatic of a larger problem -- weak spined men who don't follow through on their "promises" to the electorate. However, I have to concede that a well educated and motivated electorate is ideal. That in itself is the problem though, because the ideal does not match up to reality. People are mostly fat, dumb, and burned out. It would take a complete revamping of our educational system and 30 years to turn it all around. It would help if we could go back to the single income principle as well, for kids being "raised" by each other, and The Cartoon Channel -- just isn't getting it. An occasional drive-by shooting at your favorite Big Business would help too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 ---------------- On 10/9/2003 12:46:14 PM mdeneen wrote: BTWs: Gary - Are you a physician? I've been meaning to ask. Also, you told me to stop, then asked for more - he he. And, actually, just sift your 10 pages down to 1. Well done folks - a good flail! mdeneen ---------------- Mark, No. I'm a banker by trade. The MD is for the great state of Maryland. If you really want a 1 pager, I still have it in me. I'm not sure anyone wants to hear it at this point though (plus I have a 2:00 meeting which starts in 5 minutes). Just give me the nod and I'll rant some more when I get back to my desk. - Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 "We murder 20M Indians not long ago in as clean a description of genocide as anyone could put on paper, and yet we "don't get it" when others do this. Oh, those crazy cowboys!" The Ken Burns doc on the Lewis & Clark expedition has been on PBS again. The point was made that Americans afterwards (1806) immediately FAILED to learn the lesson about how best to get along with Native Americans as the expedition had exemplified for the most part. Actually the dark side of Americans goes back almost to the very beginning. For a long time our democracy tended to hold these folks in check and activists made strides to improve social conditions generally. Now the dark side has finally found a way to take over. Its like a comic book nightmare where the good guy superheroes have been rendered impotent. The dark ages are well under way again. Good luck. C&S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 ---------------- On 10/9/2003 9:30:30 AM mdeneen wrote: Craig said: "I'm sorry to mix it up and rarely want to get involved in Politcal discussion in a puplic forum.....: ============= I know my buddy Craig will hate me for this, but that statement above is central to the issue, if not the problem we face. "Politics," and its close friend religion, has become an anti-social art. Something to be whispered in privacy, if at all. In fact, I'd say that currently America (as in the population) may be one of the most apolitcal countries I know of. Hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil. Since it's not reasonable to expect all people of any culture to be political scientists - ala some formal education in that art - the WAY in which politics is contested, digested, and ultimately consensualized is SUPPOSED to be through public intercourse. I suspect this has been replaced by TV. In the sense that we have accepted we get our "political discourse" on the television through carefully scripted (who cares which side is scripting, really) controlled "briefings" we call news. People silently sit in a stupor taking in a few sound bites at 6pm and from this develop some "political bend." Images of the President landing on an aircraft carrier - mission accomplished - ok, well, what's next? Months back, just before the War On Iraq, I asked people - even some on this forum - "Well, just how much money ARE you willing to spend on this enterprise?" The infamous response was, "I Don't Car How Much - Whatever It Takes!" Well, now, the bills are coming in - along with a better assessment of that "horribly IMMINENT threat" and so on. The deficit is growing to truly cosmic proportions, states are in dire shape, budgets are out of whack, our guys are being picked off in a turkey shoot, jobs are being lost at a rate that has not been seen since the depression, and there is now "no money" for anything we might need LOCALLY to improve our lot. Having blown our wad, our children's wad and probably their children's wad on this "adventure" we have worsened our lot and narrowed our options dramatically - but gee, at least we were patriotic about it and didn't ask questions. Now, my point behind that? The PUBLIC discussion, the *****ing, the un-patriotic "questioning" of such policy BACK THEN - before we blew our wad, was regarded as 1) impolite in public; 2) unpatriotic in the extreme; 3) and in the end, unimportant because the "CIA/NSA/DIA surely knows best about all these WMD." We were just happy as clams to "let the experts" assess the risk and the right policy. BOING! The experts are intended to be US. Let me repeat, the concept is that WE - you and ME - are the ultimate authoritative experts in a democracy. That can only happen in public. Senators today are kicking themselves for NOT asking the questions, for NOT engaging the debate. The public will be kicking themselves very soon, and for a long, long, long time. So, to answer Craig's question: Why not just leave? My answer is that I'd rather be a part of changing this one than adapting to another one. Craig didn't like the long dirty list of negatives. Just focus on ONE for a moment - health. Imagine a family - wherein the parents refused to take care for their children. Instead of doctor visits, medicine or whatever else was needed, they blew the family money on booze or gambling, jewelry or in fact, just drove down the highway throwing the money out the car window. What would be your "judgment" about these "parents" or leaders of that family, who can't even provide the BASIC health needs of their children? Their childrens' teeth are falling out of their head while their off on an "exotic adventure." In that respect a nation is not far different. Just how CAN you claim to be the "richest nation" (how proud we are of THAT!) and yet have some of the piss-poorest healthcare delivery in the world? How do you sit back and say, "Well Hot Damn, Love it or Leave it Baby or Shut Up?" Oh, here it comes - the "you stinkin' Lefty-Pinko-Socialists are all the same," argument. This will be entertaining. mdeneen ---------------- OK Mark. A one pager then I quit. You make some reasonable points today, but ultimately the issue is all about our national security. 9/11 changed everything and universal health care won't amount to a tinker's dam if Al Queda gets a dirty bomb from Saddam or his ilk and sets it off in downtown Peoria. That politicians are having a change of heart now, during the run-up to the '04 elections, regarding the need for the Iraq war would only strike little children as unmotivated by politics. As to the overall state of the economy and your concerns that we "blew our wad" and now can't take care of, what is in your opinion, more pressing needs than national security, I recently saw a report about what it means to be poor in the U.S. in 2003. 78% of "the poor" have colored televisions and over 60% have cell phones. In other words, being rated as poor or living "beneath the poverty line" in the U.S. doesn't compare with depression-era poverty or 3d world poverty. Implicitly calling for national health care -- as exists all over socialist Europe and Canada. The news reports are legion with stories of unavailable surgery in these countries. Thanks, but no thanks. We hear day in and day out about the "piss-poorest healthcare delivery in the world." As a recipient of vast quantities of healthcare through all sorts of delivery systems, e.g, ***, fee for service, and emergency room care, I just don't see it. The fact is that the poor get free health care with Medicaid, for which we all pay dearly. Most working people have health insurance through their jobs, though the premiums are admittedly expensive. I am unwilling to muck around with the entire health care system (which includes a necessary profit incentive to develop new drugs and treatments) to deal with (1) uninsured lower/middle class who would rather have cable than buy expensive private insurance; and (2) a budget blowing prescription benefit for Bill Gates' parents. As to the States, their budgets are "out of whack" 'cuz they chose to live "high on the hog" when the economic cycle was booming in the '90s (as we've since learned, in part due to Clinton's misfeasance, i.e., failure to act, on all matters stock-related, e.g., no investigations of Enron or Worldcom). California is the best example of this, where pensions for retired State govt. workers are 90% of pre-retirement salary! Sometimes, methinks, facts are stronger than opinions. As always, JMHO. Thanks for giving me one more rant. I love you guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Hello: I thought this had been autopsied, viewed and put in its burial vault. One CAN talk of politics without bringing Religion in. It's too bad our Leaders do not realize that. To avoid Religion? As I stated use "The Golden Rule." There were two peaks: the landing on the moon and Woodstock. Take the energy and money from either and channel it into a working National Trust - we would have a labeled National Health Care instead of leaving the dictates for the States to fund. Why has there been no REAL questioning of the end of the earlier Iraqi "war?" Why did the son try to finish the Father's business. A modern outlook? A part would include taking responsibility for one's own actions. In a part of cleaning up the gasoline spill (50,000+) a trench was being dug to lay piping. I went over to see, the site foreman asked me to sign a waiver in the potential that I may fall into the trench and get hurt. I did, it was my choice to go look, it was my choice to get as close, it would have been my own fault if I fell, but I had to sign the waiver stating I would not sue if I fell and was physically injured or mentally traumatized. After being in the Airport building the night of 9/11 holding an M16 and carrying a 9mm, we have now had the budget for security cut. I can grasp your ideas Mark. I can see where they COULD be put into use. I don't see the populace going out to vote. There is too much squawking of what is my one (1) vote going to do. RE; the Town Supervisor mentioned earlier winning by one (1) vote. As Gary said, we have National healthcare: Medicaid and Medicare. Two (2) excellent programs that are brought to excess in use and in the way the payments are structured. For Medicare, they will pay $50.00 per month in rental fees for a $200.00 machine. We can either stop being the world's Police Force or we can fund it properly without the waste that takes place. That is not 7th Century thinking, that is eliminating the greed within the contracts. It is no longer guns or butter. It is not term limits - that can be done by the voters. It is smart thinking. Case in point, we have a new Public Safety Building, very nice looking a lot of glass for offices and an expressway about 300 feet away. As your minds are wondering, two (2) bullet holes in the glass of the Chief's office before he moved in. The smart thinking will come if we stop cutting educational funds - not football or the other popular things that are added in to rile the public into passing a budget. Football and all the others are fine, fund them separately from EDUCATION. The positives in this country far outweigh the negatives. It's a matter of tweaking and deciding a different allocation of funds. That is not 7th Century, that is reality. The wheel was invented once - in NY State if you use a gun in the commission of a felony, the law states one (1) year prison, no bargaining. I have not found any point where it has been used. Road Rage was popular to complain about, let's make new laws. What about following too closely, reckless endangerment - laws or violations already in place. The politicians get photo ops for signing new laws to solve the problem. The United States of America is my home, I spent a good number of years trying to protect a portion. We need more voters, democrat or republican the lines are blurring to get up, go out and vote. The votes count, what the people elected stand for, at least stated, are looked at. Fix the good thing we have in place, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Win dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 "So to conclude, the chances of me being unsecured (killed) by an Iraqi is about 8-jillion to one. The chances of me being unsecured by a faulty airline part, a stray gang bullet, a cancer, a poisonous hamburger, an astroid and so on, are much, much lower. " Mark, Did you mean to say "much, much higher"? as in "higher" chance (higher probability) = more likely? {am I back on the wagon, or did I fall off?.....} As far as I am concerned, the risk of tainted burgers around the block is higher than the Iraqui's tainted missle being delivered to my neighborhood, etc. C&S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassetized Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 folks, i think it is guns before butter...and guns before education and guns before healthcare....the military and suppliers for the military have made out like bandits lately and after demanding that no child be left behind, W promply turned his back on them. could the current Iraq war be Karma for W, for going AWOL during Viet Nam? i think it would only be fair if all National Guardsmen would duck out on their last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Hey, Clipped! I know that burger joint...isn't it run by Iraquis, by cracky? Hmmm, what are the chances of that? fini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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