mobile homeless Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 WEll, at the least, you have some options to consider... The easiest thing is to go listen an play with some of these pieces nearby. You are really lucky that this stuff IS nearby. IF the Linn LP-12 is setup, go give it a listen. Ditto for the VPI Scout. Same with the Clearaudio. I just think the VPI Scout is a lot for the money. My heart lies with the Linn LP-12 which I think sounds like tubes compared to the modern acrylic/no suspension/massive tables. IT has a more soulful quality that is hard to define but easy to hear. I sounds bigger and more rich than the modern tables to me. In a real way for me, it sounds "more analog" than the modern tables. I am aware that some dont go for this. The Clearaudio level 1 and 2 do look impressive but you are talking MAJOR $$$ to move to this. Of the modern tables in the 1200 range, I still think the VPI Scout is probably a great rec. My preference would also favor the Linn LP-12. Anyway, there are so many option for vinyl these days... and ironically enough, it wasnt that long ago when people were saying vinyl is DEAD. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 17, 2003 Author Share Posted October 17, 2003 Well I am now 5 phone calls later having spoken to 5 separate knowledgable people on the issue: 3 of them are Linn lovers (there is nothing more musical) and 2 are Linn haters (it was good for its day but...) 1 recommended the Acoustic Solid despite the fact he no longer sells them. He is one of the Linn haters and reckons the Acoustic solid is THE TT. He stopped selling them only because of a fall out with his supplier. Trouble is it is big, metal and expensive - I think not. 3 recommended the Clearaudio on the basis it was a great trade in deal, and, once fully upgraded - the pathway to audio bliss. All of them agreed that in standard form it is outplayed by the Scout (actually 2 of them did - the third said he imagined it could be but hasnt listened to the scout properly). Opinions were split on how, in standard form, it compares to the Linn. 1 recommended the Acoustic Signature Samba good match, aparently, for my Phono stage which is also Acoustic Signature. All of them rate the Nottingham highly, but somehow didnt come across as recommending it, implyng that I would in turn upgrade that soon. Suggestions as to what else to look at were many and varied. I think I need to take a rain-check on that - I could spent the next 3 months just evaluating Turntables The only way forward it seems is to limit the choices to what is on the table now. Things get further complicated by the fact that some of the TT's I am looking at are 2nd hand (Linn and Nottingham). The Linn looks like it has been around the block a few times (nasty scratch on the front of the wood to boot) - I am shying away from it. However good its sonics I have a feeling it will spend more time in bits than playing. I keep coming back to the Nottingham, but with less conviction each time. The Accoustic Signature is big and metal and upgradable into bigger and metaller. It is also one of the more expensive options. Its out. So we are down to the Scout Vs the Clearaudio. Scout better at the outset. Clearaudio upgradable. Hmmmm. OK - one other aspect. I like the guy that sells the clearaudio and I dont know the guy that sells the Scout. Decision made. Thanks guys. Note : This post may read like garbage but it really helped me make up my mind, which makes it the most useful post to this forum I have ever made, if only for me. Just got to confirm the Shelter is in full working order (hopefully tonight) and I will get the clearaudio sometime next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 OK - one other aspect. I like the guy that sells the clearaudio and I dont know the guy that sells the Scout. Decision made - I am getting the Clearaudio Good to see reason finally prevailed. Umm...since you are in no rush per say (only a cartridge coming in), I would REALLY listen to the tables. They are all nearby so do yourself a favor and dont pull a 2 channel Klipsch Forum move... Go spend a few hours listening to and using the options before spending $1500 or more. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 17, 2003 Author Share Posted October 17, 2003 "Go spend a few hours listening to and using the options before spending $1500 or more." Arranging a listening session is easy. Making any sense of what I hear is more tricky. It will be pure luck to find any 2 tables that have the same cartridge on them (or arm / phono stage etc.) Add in to the mix the different systems... The only proper test would be to test out each table on my system, with my cartridge and whatever arm would be applicable. That would be difficult, if not impossible to arrange. Add in to the mix that I am not sure I want this cart being connected and removed from systems all the time - cant be good for the cart. After my nightmare experiences with the BPS (3 broken in less than a year) I kinda like the minimum contact with the cartridge. I know the BPS is much more vulnerable - but equally it is a lot more pricey to replace. Also although it may appear nonsense to factor in me liking the guy that sells the clearaudio it isnt quite as mad as it may appear. I have used him for some time for a lot of gear - his service is always good and he bends over backwards to help. This is not the case for many suppliers here - especially when they have their hands on your money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tillmbil Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 I believe it was Kelly that mentiones the MMF-7. Max, did anyone speak of the MMF series. I know you are setting your sights a little higher, but for plug and play I think that is were I am heading. Chritmas and B-day all in the same month I should have no problem bringing one home. WHat are you opinions? WHat cartridge to purchase it with? Best place to purchase it? I have found some around $895 for a demo or $995 new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 William Give Wally a call from http://www.underwoodhifi.com this is where I purchased my MMF-7 and over all I'm very happy with it. It comes outfitted with a nice Goldring High Output MC cartridge that works pretty well with most phono stages although with less overall gain then other MM cartridges. But the sound is very good with the combination. Don't pay attention to the prices listed on the site I'm pretty sure there just to satisfy the manufacturers give him a ring for the actual price. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 17, 2003 Author Share Posted October 17, 2003 William, I dont know the table you mentioned - it could be absolutely brilliant - but have you any idea how many tables there are out there? If it is right for you that is great but I am trying to limit down my options rather than increasing them. From what I know (bugger all, generally) Project and Music Hall tables are considered on a par. If true, I would be more likely to go for a bigger project than a Music hall - they are just a lot more common over here. In the end I could spend till doomsday trying to a TT. All I want is something that will do justice to this cartridge and I feel that the Project RPM 4 wont. As an aside I will get the supplier of the clearaudio to fit the cartridge to the RPM4 first - as it will stay on that arm anyway I cant see it will be a problem. This will allow me to evaluate it a bit and then test out what, if any, benefit I hear when we move it to the clearaudio. With a bit of luck I wont hear any difference (proving myself wrong) and will stay where I am for now. Somehow though - I doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 ---------------- On 10/17/2003 8:36:37 AM maxg wrote: In the end I could spend till doomsday trying to a TT. ---------------- Well, it's not like there's much else to do with your time, eh? Besides this Forum, of course. fini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 "The VPI does look interesting - I will have to see who does it here" Well you'll find out its qualities soon, I just picked one up last night. All this talk of tables, and upgrading set my wheels in motion. It was a great deal, couldn't pass it up. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 I've spent some time researching my next TT so I'll chime in for what its worth. I presently have an Oracle Delphi and while its a very detailed and musical, it lacks the last bit of "umph" in the bass. I've owned several TTs and listened to quite a few more (VPI, Avid, Townshend, Nottingham, Basis, Rega, Music Hall, etc.) and here's what I've learned. In GENERAL, suspended tables offer more detail and tend to be more laid back while non-suspended tables have more pronounced, tighter bass. Suspended TTs are obviously more difficult to set up than NS but don't require as much vibration control and damping. NS TTs are less expensive for what you get but the price doesn't include the stand or platform that must prevent vibrations from affecting the bearing and cartridge. NS TTs can be mated with more tonearm and cartridge choices while the suspended TTs tend to work best with pivoted arms and higher compliance carts. Ideally a heavy, damped stand coupled to a concrete or otherwise stable floor would be the best set up for a NS TT. If that option isn't available or preferred then a suspended TT on a rigid stand or wall mount would be a better way to go. My system is on a concrete floor and I would really like to go with a NS TT as my next choice. I'm always looking to add more bass into my set up and I think a NS TT with MC cart would balance very well with a tube pre/phono, SET amp and Khorns. I'm looking hard at the offerings from Teres Audio (http://www.teresaudio.com/). Tables and Kits can be had from <$1500 to something like $6K for their lastest TT. I've only heard good things and its rare to find one on the used market. Here's a 265 on A'gon (http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?anlgtabl&1071577404&2&3&4&). Its been upgraded from a lower model but its still very nice if too expensive. Clearaudio's focus has always been to exactly reproduce the signal/music and to squeeze out every last detail. Some folks feel (myself included) that CA is too detail-oriented and not very musical and their gear a mates better with warmer, more laid-back systems. I had a Clearaudio Gamma S MC (.5mv) for a while and found it to sound very sterile-sounding in my system. Its a very exacting and detailed cart but I felt it was a bit of overkill in a system which was inherently detailed and forward to begin with. I went back to the less-detailed but warmer Shure. I've heard mostly good reviews about the Shelter carts and would really like to give one a try soon. Let me know if it doesn't match well with your system. I've heard some folks have rebuilt entire systems around the 901 so it must be exceptional (or they're just plain crazy - its a toss up). Just my opinions mind you. Hope this helps and have fun, Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 BTW, I just bought a used Music Hall MMF-7 for my brother-in-law. I haven't set it up yet but it looks very nice for the $. The Music Hall and Pro-ject TTs are built side-by-side in the same factory in Czechoslovakia - or so I've heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBusa Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 sEE MAX i AM RIGHT! This hobby is overwhelming! When you get the shelter 901 you'll still not rest easy in its ownership because you'll know there are still other better carts out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 17, 2003 Author Share Posted October 17, 2003 Bryan - fascinating stuff - I need to re-read it all to make sure I got it. Straight off the bat I can say that my system is rather more laid back than most (all tube / EL34 power) so the extra detail of the clearaudio carts (I have the 3.6 mV Virtuoso) certainly fits in. How the 901 will do I dont know (doesnt that number sound horribly like a speaker!!) if it doesnt fit I will simply remove it from the system and leap headlong out of the window. BigBussa, Yes - there are better carts but right now they cost $5K plus - and it is debatable even then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Max, Have you listened to any good direct drive tables? http://de.geocities.com/bc1a69/index_eng.html If your system do sound on the warm and laid back side, that might be the ticket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Wow. Cool site Guy. My Technics SL-1800 is sounding better all the time. Now I just need a cartridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Gary, I really like the massive direct drive tables. But anyone that wishes to try them must take into account that these are rezor sharp, fast and accurate, sounding machines and do not always sound so forgiving. So, if you tend to prefer the romantic colored sound, they are not for you. Not that there aren't any good belt drive tables around, I just love my SP10 mk2 and the idler wheel Garrards more than most belt driven ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 I spent one eving with the Shelter 901. Unfortunately it was not in my place, so no horns and ss amplification. What I was listening to was a combo that wasn't only costly (in excess of $50.000 I'd think) but also well tweaked. The music was classical (mostly good Living Stereos). So how did it sound? Certainly nothing wrong with it, musical, detailed without being sterile but somehow it didn't grab me emotionally (but that might be the characteristic of the whole setup). There seems to be nothing wrong with the price you are supposed to pay (and you'll probably be able to sell it withou much -if any- loss), still I'd listen to it first (if possible). Anyway, let us know what you think of the Shelter. Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 ---------------- On 10/17/2003 3:55:15 PM Guy Landau wrote: Gary, I really like the massive direct drive tables. But anyone that wishes to try them must take into account that these are rezor sharp, fast and accurate, sounding machines and do not always sound so forgiving. So, if you tend to prefer the romantic colored sound, they are not for you. Not that there aren't any good belt drive tables around, I just love my SP10 mk2 and the idler wheel Garrards more than most belt driven ones. ---------------- That's a good point Guy. That may change my decision regarding cartridges. Any particular cartridge able to tone down the sharpness of the SL-1800? Maybe a more neutral cartridge? I really like the sound of the thorens, definitely richer and fuller than the technics. The comparison is with the Shure V15 in each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Direct drive TTs' speed is considered more accurate than belt drives because the motor and shaft assembly are directly coupled to the platter. Of course, that's the biggest complaint too - direct drives transfer much more vibration to the platter than belt drives. Both TT designs offer a compromised solution so its just a matter of preference. I prefer belt drives but then I've only heard the mass-produced variety of DDs from the likes of Sony and Technics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 19, 2003 Author Share Posted October 19, 2003 Ok - the shelter is here and installed on the Project. Sound is amazing except for one thing. There is a huge channel imbalance. Right is about twice as loud as the left. spoken to the importer - we will DHL it to Japan for fixing next week. There will therefore be a short delay till I can come up with any proper review. For what it is worth I have been using the Pre-amp's dual volume controls to balance things out and listen. Certainly blows the Virtuoso out of the water in the areas I have tried - especially classic music which I had considered a strength of the Clearudio unit. Spent part of yesterday auditioning the Clearaudio TT (Champion). I can see what's to like and what's not to like. On a proper support this thing sounds good. The bass serves to mask the fact that this is a high mass design without the high mass to go with it. Put the table on something less suitable and the change in quality is dramatic. If I do get this table I will have to budget to pick up a seriously large block of marble to support it. This is not a unit you can place on the coffee table and get away with the sonics. I havent heard the level 1 upgrade but I did get a listen to a full level 2 (with the unipivot arm and all). Difference is dramatic! Funnily enough the cartridge employed on both was the standard Blue Point. Cartridge is much as I remembered it but as I am now listening to cartridges at many times its price commenting on its performance would be unfair. Suffice to say from what I have heard you get what you pay for with this cart. This is not the case (IMHO) for the Denon 103. If you can find one (and there are a few importers into the US) you get a lot more than you pay for - a lot!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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