mobile homeless Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 I think in reviewing speakers, it's important to tell what is driving it as this DOES affect the sound greatly, especially in Larry's case. I think some of the amazing detail and instrumental outlines in Larry's system have to be attributed to the Joule-Electra VZN-100 Mk.III OTL Monoblocks each with its own dedicated variac power supply. I have a shot of Larry's amps I'll post in here but am not on my home machine (his look MUCH better than above). Let's just say these OTL amps with a bank of 6C33 tubes are probably some of the most esoteric and expensive amplifiers used by any forum member (besides Jeff's Tenor 15 prototypes). In case one isnt familiar, the OTL means the amps are not tranfomer coupled so NO OUTPUT transformers. These amplifiers are notorious in the detail department and are considered some of the most resolving. On one more front here, I find my own Cornwalls with my 2A3 monoblocks to have the same result concerning the lack of the need for a sweetspot. Actually, I have achieved this with most of my tube amps on the Cornwalls so have attributed this to the horns. They sound excellent one room over as well as if there are musicians IN the other room. It's spooky real at times, probably the best speaker I have owned with this property. I am hoping the new Khorns are worth the price. I know that Larry is VERY happy with his new crossovers. The comment from Q-Man puzzled me as he had just written that you dont know the Khorns until you replace components and truly turn them into the best they can be. His rec surprised me considering the 6K or so spent on new with drivers you might replace. Lastly, in my many email shared with Guy LAndau, he reported EXCELLENT results with the Type A crossover. This appears to be a very easy build, considering Dean's xover experience. Anyway, power to you Deano if you can afford the beasts. You must definitely write up the perceived differences with the old vs the new as I dont recall too many comments at all about what the new Khorns sound like. I have tended to like the older Klipsch be default. Keep us updated. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 I was saying, or trying to say that I believe that the Klipschorn is the best sounding speaker that one can buy. It's really the best bang for your buck speaker that can be had. Then others were commenting on how nice the midrange sounded and were referring to the squawker. This is very true, and something that I never thought about changing out. Since they were praising it so much I just couldn't help but to say that there is room for improvement. As time passed and I got ideas form this Forumm I started experimenting. Some of my first experiments or mods didn't work out, but proved to me that there are cleaner sounding horns and drivers to be had. It took me about two years and many parts to get it right. You heard it before from me. The midrange on the Klipschorn sounds as if someone stuffed a pillow in the squawker comparred to my mod. This is something that I don't think anyone can or would believe untill you A/B this mod with a stock Klipschorn. I wasn't telling Dean that he needed to spend all that money on a pair of Klipschorns and then throw the tops away and spend more money for my mod. I have a stock pair of Klipschorns in one room that I listen to and enjoy. A while back I decided to stop posting about some of the things that I'm doing with these and other speakers. I don't think that any of the Forum members have any interest in my experimenting. I guess it can sound like I'm putting the Klipschorn down. I probably shouldn't have brought it up in this topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 Hi Q-Man, I've read lots and lots of your posts about changing drivers and horns and found them all intriguing. I might very well try some of your suggestions sometime. Your experiments have likely been appreciated by far more people than you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 Actually, some of the most enjoyable posts and threads to read are the ones by John Warren, Al K, Tom Brennen, you, and some others -- when discussing mods and variations on the horn theme. I never post in those threads because more times than not, my brain just goes into meltdown. I know I could DIY a set for about the same or less, using some "better stuff" -- but I have neither the skill sets, measuring devices, or mathematical background to calculate things out to get the optimum crossover for the drivers and lenses. I personally think the people at Klipsch are half engineers and half magicians. I think they do outstanding work for what they are using. I think it's funny you think the squawker sounds like it has a pillow stuffed in it, because based on my earlier exposures to the Klipschorn -- I always thought it could actually benefit from a pillow or two! I'm really at a loss to fully explain why I don't think this anymore. The experience I had at Paul's house was the complete antithesis of those previous experiences. Every speaker can be improved upon, but I also think that maybe sometimes the "improvements" are really just small shifts in signature that the user just happens to prefer over the signature he started out with. Reading through PWK's biography, I found it interesting how PK really preferred the exponential curve over other curves. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall, and been able to listen to what I am sure were very many interesting exchanges between PK and Delgrosso. Lowering distortion levels is always a good thing, and I'm sure a two inch throat accomplishes this -- but for home use, for most listeners -- I think the stock Klipsch monsters are plenty good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 I think it's funny you think the squawker sounds like it has a pillow stuffed in it, because based on my earlier exposures to the Klipschorn -- I always thought it could actually benefit from a pillow or two! I'm really at a loss to fully explain why I don't think this anymore. The experience I had at Paul's house was the complete antithesis of those previous experiences. ---------------- Dean, I think the reason you liked the squawker more at Pauls house is because of the amps that he was using and the size of the room. Don't let Kelly hear me say this. Paul, I don't remember, but you have the ALK networks don't you? If so, this was another thing contributing to the the sound change of the midrange. You may have once thought that the midrange needed a pillow or two because it can sound harsh at times and maybe you also heard the horn ringing. Years ago when John Albright was suggesting that you dampen the K400, I thought he was nuts. My horn didn't ring, it sounded beautiful. I didn't know what a ringing horn sounded like untill I began trying different horns. I remember saying to myself, so that is what John was talking about. So when I say this mod of mind makes the stock Klipschorn midrange sound muffled, I don't mean that it is brighter or harsher. It's cleaner, more detailed, and open, yet it remains mellow. Enought said. Paul & Dead, thanks for the comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 Yes, Q-Man, I have Al's networks in my Klipschorns and center Belle. I was going to try some different midrange settings for Dean while he was here but time flew by too fast. That is an interesting phenomenon that you mention, that somebody thinks something cannot be improved upon, only to change his mind when he experiences something better. Only then does he realize what he's been missing. I've experienced it in many realms of life, not just audio. On the other hand, philosophically speaking, one may prefer to settle down with something good and stop searching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 Qman, Not sure what the deal is since I'm not speaker expert. But that said in all but the lower regions Paul's Khorns sound just about exactly like my Lascalas and that is a very good thing in my book. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 "think it's funny you think the squawker sounds like it has a pillow stuffed in it, because based on my earlier exposures to the Klipschorn -- I always thought it could actually benefit from a pillow or two! I'm really at a loss to fully explain why I don't think this anymore. The experience I had at Paul's house was the complete antithesis of those previous experiences." Dean, When I got the Scala's it was like starting all over again. The whole listening experience was out of whack with the front end I was using on the RF3II's now fueling the Scala's. Tube rolling, equipment change, cable changes, and now sweet niravna. I think you will deal with the same issues, a definite learning experience. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 I really believe that what I'm running right now would match up really well with Heritage. I'm dying over here, after measuring everything out in the livingroom, I'm going to run into some real problems in one of my corners. The window is much closer to the corner than I thought when I eyed it. Looks like I'd lose 14" of the window if I go with some plywood or something to finish the horn (since I need the wall to "finish" the bass horn). Since this window is the "front" window, I'm starting to think it might look kind of tacky. Debbie sure wasn't too thrilled with the idea. I sure wish Klipsch had the LaScala in a finished version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbsl Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 DeanG said "I sure wish Klipsch had the LaScala in a finished version." I don't understand what you mean can you give me a little more info on that comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 They do unfinished birch, birch laquer, and laquer black. So basically, it's just raw plywood, and there is no veneer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Well no Dean its Birch plywood with a finished side isnt it? Very stainable to look similar to any wood tone you like! I personally think sound wise you would be happier with Lascalas for the music you enjoy for the most part. I would order them unfinished and finish to your taste. Craig<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 ---------------- On 12/8/2003 1:09:05 AM DeanG wrote: I really believe that what I'm running right now would match up really well with Heritage. I'm dying over here, after measuring everything out in the livingroom, I'm going to run into some real problems in one of my corners. The window is much closer to the corner than I thought when I eyed it. Looks like I'd lose 14" of the window if I go with some plywood or something to finish the horn (since I need the wall to "finish" the bass horn). Since this window is the "front" window, I'm starting to think it might look kind of tacky. Debbie sure wasn't too thrilled with the idea. I sure wish Klipsch had the LaScala in a finished version. ---------------- Are you saying the plywood would be visible, or that the horn extends into part of the window area, or both? I put a plywood sheet over only that part of a glass-paneled door (to the outside) that is blocked by the horn, and the sheet is hidden by the horn. I did not extend the plywood out to a proper prescribed length, so that the glass starts to show as soon as it emerges from the side grill. The appearance is fine with me. The edge of the door is 11" from the corner and the glass begins at 15"; the K-horn top runs 22" from the corner to where it angles away from the wall. Mine is both a visual and no doubt sonic compromise, visually acceptable because the door is a minor part of the decor. I do have to live with some bass weakness, which may have partly to do with other things as well. I could see a much bigger visual problem if it were a front window, though. In fact, my other horn starts to angle away from the wall just 2" short of a living room window. It doesn't seem to intrude on the view, depending on the viewing angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 It sure is starting to make more sense to go in that direction. With the money I save I could always buy a sub if I feel like I really need one, plus I can tinker with placement a little. I wouldn't have to sell the Cary either, and could upgrade the caps. Yeah, this is starting to look like the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkrop Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Dean, check out the rosewood/lust thread for a pic of edsters false corners, might this be an option? P.S. my Scalas bass sounds awsome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 I would still try the Klipschorns personally. Judging by all the exchanges in this whole forum and the High Efficiency speaker Asylum combined with those that have had both, I think the Khorn still gets the ultimate nod with the bass consideration. Given this might be your last horn purchase of this type, it REALLY makes more sense to go with Klipschorns in my view. That is the next speaker I would get if I were going Klipsch Heritage again. Edmond just got a pair of Khorns and it moved his Belles to second tier. I cant count the preferences I have read over the years for Klipschorns over LaScala. Not to say the LaScala is a bad speaker. But the Khorns just appear to do the bass far better in the depth department. After hearing the Khorns at Chris Robinson's house last summer, Jeff said the Klipschorns would probably be his next purchase. Direct quote, "I have never heard bass as tonally natural or right as done by Klipschorn." Many have far more problematic layout than you do. You have the option of the false corners which have received good reviews or actually customizing the window area (a professional carpenter could do wonders here). I personally would still not rule out a good used pair, where you will save thousands but that's just me. I see your points. IF not in a rush, you might find yourself with more options. Now you are bringing in the sub option, just another can of worms in my view. Just another viewpoint. You might write Edmond, one of the newest members of the Khorn clan that had the Belle. Ditto with Edster in Atlanta. AGain, it seems fitting to just go all the way with the Khorn in my view. It is the speaker you heard at PArrots. And to be honest, your compromises appear small compared to some others I have talked to. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Round and round he goes, where he stops nobody knows. LaScalas can be made to look very nice if done by the right person. If we were closer I would doll up a pair for you. Just stick with a bass horn, don't start thinking Cornwall now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Room issues / placement aside this is the first thread I ever recall seeing that suggests the LaScala's have better sonics that KHorns in any department, bass or otherwise. I think you could mount an argument to put forth that LaScala's may be able to create a deeper soundstage than a KHorn (although I have not heard that achieved) but otherwise it is outclassed in every direction according to my listening experiences. I should add here that I am aware of the common elements in terms of the tweeter / mid-range Horns but from what I have heard the KHorn boxing / enforced positioning (/ other issue I dont know) does a far better job with the same basic equipment than the LaScala. I have heard both speakers in a variety of setups and rooms with amplificaiton varying from bruising SS to SET. The worst KHorn setup I have heard still outplayed the best LsScala to my ears... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 ---------------- On 12/8/2003 9:46:51 AM maxg wrote: Room issues / placement aside this is the first thread I ever recall seeing that suggests the LaScala's have better sonics that KHorns in any department, bass or otherwise. I think you could mount an argument to put forth that LaScala's may be able to create a deeper soundstage than a KHorn (although I have not heard that achieved) but otherwise it is outclassed in every direction according to my listening experiences. I should add here that I am aware of the common elements in terms of the tweeter / mid-range Horns but from what I have heard the KHorn boxing / enforced positioning (/ other issue I dont know) does a far better job with the same basic equipment than the LaScala. I have heard both speakers in a variety of setups and rooms with amplificaiton varying from bruising SS to SET. The worst KHorn setup I have heard still outplayed the best LsScala to my ears... ---------------- Max, Interesting, very interesting! I'm starting to get a boner for some khorns! Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Tom, Its all setup ! I can tell you right now with hard hitting music I would take my Lascalas over the sound of the Khorns I have heard as of late. But I have a special placement setup that may account for my findings. In a normal listening setup without the large 8' workbench cabinets I may not be so impressed with the Lascalas. Each room is different for sure. The Bass of the Khorn I find to polite for my taste ! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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