Kornerhorns.........how to improve an old pair

[JWPATE]

Gentlemen,

I am new to the forum, and did try to find answers by reading previous threads rather than seek information which has been provided many times before.

My question is general in nature how long can the original speaker drivers be expected to last in a pair of Kornerhorns?

My speakers were bought second-hand in the early 90s, with serial numbers 19X 609 and subsequent. They are probably from about 1985.

Today I happened to visit T.H.E. Show, here in Las Vegas, and while there I examined/listened to a pair of reproduction Lansing Hartfield speakers. For a long time I listened, and I didnt want to leave. More mature members may recall the design, as they were produced by J.L. Lansing from 54 till about 64. They are horns, and designed also to fit corner locations, but unlike Klipsh Khorns, they emit the bass out the front and so do not actually need to be in corners. To put it mildly, I was blown away. They were just so good that were the price (30K/pr) more reasonable I would be thinking of changing.

Of course, those Hartfields are brand new and were powered with the latest thing, including power conditioners and speaker cable the size of your arm. Still, they were without question, in a very different league than my old Khorns. This has me wondering whether it may be time to upgrade the Klipsch speakers with new drivers, or at least send the tweeter and squawker out for testing. And where can I send them. Or is there an upgrade available in the same sizes, but to higher quality?

I would very much appreciate your opinions on the matter. Surely, no speaker can be expected to last forever. Eventually they just dont cut it any longer, but what is a normal expectation for them? The enclosures, of course, are still fine, and to my mind the Kirsch is a better design than that classic Hartsfield it should be capable of producing equal or even better sound. At present though, it is not even in the same ballpark. I already have the ALK crossovers and they did help. But compared to those Hartfield reproductionsNot even close!

James

[SCOOTERDOG]

James,

Welcome to our little corner of the world. In all honesty fully horn loaded klipsch heritage drivers will last a very very long time. I have had my la scalas(same drivers as Khorns) for 24 years now and have never ever had a driver problem or noticed any degrigation in the sound quality due to there age. I would like to tweak the crossover some but it has not happened at this time. The only changes I made was a full rewiring of them with monster cable. I did this due only in part to there age and the wiring showing some corrosion. I did this about 5 months ago and had the opportunity to inspect the K33 woofer. I was so impressed at how it looked, almost new. You have a very good upgrade in the ALK crossover. You will find some have modified the top ends of there klipsch with other drivers but again this is a personal thing. Will it improve the sound quality for you? Maybe, maybe not. We all hear very different and sometimes we think that can do things to improve the sound of our klipsch. PWK went through many variations and changes to arrive at the speakers we now have in our homes and this was done with intent and reason.

I don't know what kind of music you listen to or the type of volume you generally decide to use. Mine have been used from 2 channel to now the mains in my HT. Granted I listen at pretty high levels when watching a movie, and when the wife is not home I feed them quite well when playing music. Again never a problem or complaint.

Enjoy what you have as they are one of the finest speakers ever concieved and manufactured in the world. They will truely provide you with a LIFETIME of listening pleasure.

[johnnyp]

Klipschorns (nor any speaker) will not "wear out" under normal operating conditions. You do not need to periodically replace your drivers for improved sound. The ALK crossover upgrade you did will change the sound more than anything else except a change of music source. You should check your tweeter horns to make sure they are operating. If one driver is prone to failure in the Klipschorn, it would be the tweeter horn.

The Hartsfield and the Klipschorn are both fully horn loaded but sound different. Some say the Hartsfield sounds better. You said "and to my mind the Kirsch is a better design than that classic Hartsfield". I am not convinced that this is true (for me). Please remember that you can acquire 15 pairs of Klipschorns (on eBay) for what you'll pay for those Hartsfields.

Both of these speaker systems are super-sensitive to the electronics (or vacuum tubes) that power them. What kind of amp, preamp, cd, etc are you using with your Klipschorns?

[j-malotky]

Hi James

The Klipschorn.... It is a great speaker, for its price it is the best speaker value anywhere. Unfortunately for them to really sound great they need to be in a room designed for its optimum performance. for example my Khorns sound great and are in a room designed for listening, but the best pair I ever heard was at the home of the forum member Artto. The imaging he gets out of his room is down right spookey.

The best upgrade you can do to your Khorns is put them in a room designed to be used for Khorns. If you don't have good corners and want a full horn system, you are better off with LaScallas IMO.

The ALK is a great addition. I love mine. Also the X in the SN means yours were built in 1982.

JM

[MrMcGoo]

Welcome to the forum!

There are many possible reasons that your K-horns may be under performing. The extremely high sensitivity of the K-horns reveals any and every weakness in the chain of reproduction. My advice is to take a look at every component prior to the K-horns including the speaker wire.

It would help if we knew what you are useing on the front end. There are many on the forum that believe in tube amps or class A solid state. The best place to get advice on the front end would be the 2 channel forum.

Bill

[Audio Flynn]

read the forum on amplification and prefered sources from other forum members.

One just changed from a inexpensive KLH DVD player for CDs to a Denon high end multi format digital player.

Work on the sum of the factors before the speaker cable before you work on the K Horns them selves.

IMHO

[3dzapper]

James,

Welcome to the forum.

I have had my Khorns since they were new in 1977. Only within the past year, after lurking than participating on this forum, have I dome anything to change the sound, and the difference is very pleasurable. Even my wife, though a music lover definately not an audiopile, is impressed.

First make sure that the horns are properly coupled to the corners. This is of the utmost importance to get good clean horn bass. There are several means of going this depending upon how square the corners of your room are.

The changes I made to the horns themselves are modest and noticable. First I used rope caulk to dampen the reconance of the squaker and tweeter horns. If you have the metal K400 horn that is the first change I would recommend. Second I replaced the wiring to the woofer with 12ga OFC cable. That really tightened up the bass. Third I replaced the caps in the AA crossovers and recently added a bridge cap to them.

If you have the AL crossovers the ALK, a custum designed network by Al K who designs microwave networks in real life, would be the way to go or build AA networks from scratch with modern components. Al K is also working up a new network for the Khorn that should be availiable soon. Read down in the odds and mods section.

If you are interested in spending a bit more money Klipsch has availiable an upgrade to the latest drivers and network. The cost is about $1800 for the two AK4 networks, new design squaker drivers and new tweeters. That will bring them up to 2004 sound wise.

The other, more expensive, thing I have done is to listen to other forum members and get some tube amplification. I have vintage, rebuilt Scotts, a 300b SET, a Dynaco ST35 upgraded clone which I built and am waiting for a Jolida 302 EL-34 amp to be delivered. Each amp has a different sonic signature and all are more ear friendly than my Yamaha SS HT amp.

Read around and participate in the forum heed some of the good advice and you will not be sorry you didn't take out that second mortgage to by those Hartsfeild clones. Dollar for dollar I feel that Klipschorns represent the best value in audio even when buying new today.

Rick

[LarryC]

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On 1/11/2004 6:48:56 AM 3dzapper wrote:

If you are interested in spending a bit more money Klipsch has availiable an upgrade to the latest drivers and network. The cost is about $1800 for the two AK4 networks, new design squaker drivers and new tweeters. That will bring them up to 2004 sound wise.

Rick

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James,

The AK-4 upgrade Rick mentioned also includes new Klipsch-spec'd Monster Cable internal wiring, pre-cut and terminated and ready to "drop in". I thought it a definite improvement when I replaced my 1980s-vintage drivers and crossovers. Costly, tho'.

Larry

[JWPATE]

Thank you Gentlemen, for all the sound advise. And forgive me for not being more informative as regards the full system. The drivers in my Kornerhorns are all original, so far as I know. The squawkers are stamped K55V and tweeters are K77M. The stock crossover network I replaced last month, with the ALK Engineering unit. I experimented with several settings on the ALK crossovers but have returned to the theoretical correct setting for the K55V driver.

Signal input has been from a Linn Troika cartridge on the Linn Ittok arm of a LP12 turntable. I have been using a Creek Audio OBH9SE phono stage for the moving coil cartridge. Recently, I have changed over the phono input to; Micro Benz Ruby 2 cartridge, on the JMW Memorial tone arm with a VPI TNT3 turntable. I have not actually been able to listen to this setup yet, as I am waiting for a drive belt from VPI. I am also about to build up the Bent Audio step-up transformer. This will be a 10X step-up for the Ruby 2 and allow me to input directly into the pre-amp MM phono-stage.

The amps and pre-amps are all vintage tube (like me). The pre is McIntosh C22 and the amps are a pair of McIntosh 225s set up for mono operation. I plan to soon replace these with a Marantz 7C pre-amp and a pair of Marantz Model 9 amps. These units are presently in restoration.

Other inputs include a Marantz 10B tuner and a Philips 963SA for CD. Mostly it is vinyl though, and the music is mostly classical and jazz. For classical I usually favor smaller groups simply because they sound better on this system. I also love the large philharmonic sounds, but find that they seem less satisfying with this setup, at least so far.

Thanks again for your help, and sorry I didnt provide this information in the first instance.

James

[Istari]

J.W.,

What are the dimensions of your listening room?

[ZAKO]

Speaker diaphrams do wear out & at times need replacing. Weather phenaulic, aluminum etc. Take a old credit card & bend it back & forth a few times & you will see it develop a fatigue line develope. this also happens to the diapmrams. It is recommended to change them every 15 yrs. In the HARTSFIELD clones They are using TAD speakers Some of the best beryllium diaphrams & 2" throat drivers. Very clean sounding units. And very expensive. They can be fitted to the Khorn Ive done it. but its not easy the mid horn has to be modified plus the tweeter has to be up graded (TAD ET-703 or FOSTEX 900) Plus xovers. Looking at price the Klipsch $1800 upgrade is a good buy. But dont expect it to sound like the HARTSFIELD. Also the HARTSFIRLD folded horn design is similer to the KLIPSCH JUBILEE. At present KLIPSCH LLC refuses to bring out this horn to the masses.

[Q-Man]

The first Klipschorns were built with backs that completed the folding of the basshorn and had a top on the basshorn. This top came out to the front of the speaker and was below the midrange horn, just like the Hartsfield. Another words it was also a complete basshorn. I don't know the reasons why Paul changed this design. I have a few ideas, but I would only be guessing. I experimented with a sealed top on the basshorn when I was experimenting with different horns, drivers, and networks for the top section. I was also trying to find ways to improve on the basshorn, but couldn't. But, I have a few ideas to try yet. I didn't say anything to anyone here because I think it hindered the upper bass performance. If I remember correctly adding the top to the basshorn added a db or two around 200 to 300Hz which I thought to be an improvement. But, it took away a db at 300 to 400Hz where the Klipschorn needs it the most. There is a simple way that you can try this yourselves. Cut two 45 degree triangles, 2 equal sides 90 degrees to each other at 13" and the long side will be 18-3/8". Have the Klipschorn in the corner of course, and have someone add and remove the two triangle pieces of plywood while you listen. This could be a simple test to see how good your ears are.

If you have warble test tones play the tones from 200 to 500Hz.

I never heard the Hartsfield, but it is the next speaker that I want to compare to the Klipschorn. It was designed after the Klipschorn to be a cost no object speaker to best the Klipschorn. JBL thought that the Klipschorn was poorly constructed with it's 1/2" plywood basshorn and that the folds of the horn were too severe and restricked the performance too much. He also didn't like the use of cheap drivers and horns in the top section of the Klipschorn. I don't doubt you that you heard a better sounding top end from the Hartsfield. The company now making the Hartsfield offers it with JBL or Tad drivers. The Tad drivers add a lot to the cost. Do you know what drivers were in the one that you were listening to?

I must also say that you can't compare any speaker to another one unless you listen to them side by side. Your brain just can't remember all that information.

I'll post a picture of one of my mods that I'm sure people are getting sick of hearing about, but it does sound so much better then the stoch Klipschorn. I'm going to be installing the new networks in them today, as soon as I get off of the site. This is the third attempt at getting the network right for the Altec driver and midrange horn along with the JBL tweeter.

[Q-Man]

The new top end.

[Jim Cornell]

I know im crazy!

Earthquake MAGMA 15 i installed these, to make up for the small room, ive decided to leave them in, at $519.00 Ea new, heck why not>

Ive been literally shaking the house now for a month, the K-horns are holding up just fine, i have these Bi amped, so i have more power going to the Earthquakes, there rated at 500w, im pushing roughly 175w, into each voice coil 4 in all for a total of 350w each.

I have the other amp, on the sub output on my H/T reciever, till this day, ive never heard such tight bass, i still caint believe how they sound, and yes i will always have the K-33s.

Regards Jim

[Q-Man]

Two pairs of the new 290/311 and JBL-2404H tweeter networks ready to be installed.

[JWPATE]

Yes, those Hartsfield speakers I listened to were the top-of-the-line flagship models. Done in beautiful rosewood, they used the finest components, including all TAD drivers.

Magnificent sound!!

[Q-Man]

A front view.

[mungkiman]

JWPATE - What will you be doing with the McIntosh gear? I would be interested if any part becomes available after your Marantz gear is restored. Thank you for your consideration.

Q-MAN - Beautiful work as always. I'm impressed!

Chris

[HDBRbuilder]

Actually, there were TWO distinctly different basshorn designs that JBL marketed as "The Hartsfield". Mr. Hartsfield was a student of basshorns, with a keen interest in the design of the Klipschorn, which he spent a good bit of time tweaking, and playing around with. The first Hartsfield version, designed by Mr. Hartsfield FOR JBL, using a design he had come up with, but that had to be modified for JBL's use, was comprised of a driver firing forward at a downward angle into a monopathway that continued underneath towards the rear of the cabinet, then became a bifurcated pathway and fired back forward around the sides. This came out in about 1954. In 1954 dollars, it cost around 900 bucks EACH! The second version was NOT designed by Mr. Hartsfield, but was actually a re-design of the bass horn by a team of JBL engineers, making it a bifurcated pathway firing forward into two separate "S" horns, one to each side, that ended up firing forward around the sides. This redesign was made around 1959. These are similar, but still very different, basshorn designs...with the latter version more easily(read less-expensive in materials AND labor) constructed, thereby allowing for more profit per unit...in 1959 dollars, still around 900+ bucks EACH! BOTH of these designs were offered up as complete speakers, or as a set of plans that could be purchased by the home-builder. Not only that, but they were offered up with two separate "kits" of drivers/horns/horn-extension/networks...one a basic economy version using an 8" extended range driver and a horn extension, with the backside of the 8" driver firing the basshorn...whereas in the other "full-blown upgrade" version, a 15" driver fired the basshorn...and the horn extension was not needed. I have no idea which "Hartsfield" version you listened to. Just remember, that for the price of ONE Hartsfield, in 1954, one could buy a new Chevrolet automobile! That may be a better comparison of the cost than just saying "1954 dollars"! That kinda "more-or-less" lines up with the current asking price for a pair of these "re-issues" of this classic speaker, doesn't it? The Hartsfield cost more then, as it does now, than a Klipschorn...for a number of reasons. One of these is the price of the top-of-the-line JBL drivers used in it!

It has been said more than once that PWK's real genious was not so much that he designed the Klipschorn, but even moreso, that he was able to use much less expensive drivers in it to provide such a wonderful sound reproduction! Not only that, but his entire "heritage" line all used the SAME mid-range drivers, and tweeters...AND woofers, with the exception of the Heresy's woofer...the major difference being in the mid-range horn lenses and crossover networks...this saved the company major bucks by being able to purchase larger numbers of drivers at a reduced rate, since all of the line-up basically used the same ones! Also, since Klipsch did NOT make its own drivers, it was able to go to another supplier if/when a better driver for the purpose could be had at a reduced rate...OR if a less-costly driver could accomplish the same ends! One more advantage to this method is that all of the speakers in that line could be voiced similarly, since the same drivers were being used in them! Today a pair of new K-horns goes for around 6 grand...compare that to the price of those Hartsfields, with a pair of them going for the same price as a pretty nice new car! IOW, you could get FIVE pairs of K-horns for the price of ONE pair of those Hartsfield-re-issues. Is there any wonder why the Klipschorn has remained in production for all of this time, and the Hartsfield went out of production in its first decade?

Now, consider that you were NOT listening to the Hartsfields AND your K-horns in the SAME listening environment, with the SAME upstream components, etc...that may well account for the vast majority of the difference in your listening experiences between the two speakers!

[Q-Man]

HDBRbuilder,

I've said it a number of times that the Klipschorn, and LaScala speakers are the best bang for your buck speakers that one can buy. PWK made a fine speaker and brought a lot of joy to many people by keeping them in such a reasonable price range. Saying that also makes it quite obvious that there is room for improvement.

Once I finish this project of mine, I'm going to build the Hartsfield. I need to hear it. The nice thing about the Hartsfield is that it can have a higher crossover point from the bass horn to midrange horn. This will make it a lot easier to find a midrange driver and horn then the Klipschorn bass horn.

I still say that the University Classic is the best sounding bass horn that I ever heard, but it drops off fast ,around 55Hz, like the LaScala.