RichardP Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 As a long-time digital satellite TV subscriber, I was wondering about other peoples experiences with DirecTV and Dish Network. I had DirecTV for several years, then switched to Dish a year ago. I immediately noticed a surprising amount of color blocking (macroblocking), i.e, in a scene with a large field of similar color, where there should be subtle color gradation, you can see a jagged border (of blocks) where one shade shift transitions to the next. I first noticed this on the Starz movie channels, specifically during LOTR: Fellowship of the Ring, although it also happens on other channels to varying degrees. My satellite installer's understanding is that it is a digital compression artifact, and that some channels will be compressed more than other channels, apparently based on an engineering decision about which channels get assigned the most bandwidth. Has anyone had much experience with both Dish and DirecTV and seen these artifacts? Is one companys compression process reliably better than the other? My second question regards digital audio connections. Interestingly, some basic-model DirecTV receivers (incl. some installed for free) have the optical Dolby Digital output jack, while only the higher-end Dish receivers w/Tivo have it. I do not want a Tivo/VDR unit (and certainly won't pay for Tivo service), so I wondered if any of you think it is worth switching back to DirecTV just to get true DD sound decoding on the few movies which are broadcasted in DD? Thanks for your observations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VGREEN Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 I can tell you I had better service with DISH than DIRECTV. I have been having issues with DIRECTV's DD for over a year now and they just keep telling me they are trying to better the problem. The problem is the DD will somestimes "fall out", this is not an equipment problem because it happens with both of my DIRECTV DD receivers. I am thinking of going back to DISH because of this problem. The cheap DIRECTV receivers have the digital optical out but they are not DD capable, beware and make sure it is marked DD if you go DIRECTV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easylistener Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 I have had Directv for years and still love it. DD is limited to movie channels only and only a few movie channels at that. I have not had any problems with DD droping out on any of my receivers. What is funny to me is that you are having blocking problems on Starz which is a premium station. Premium stations have less compression than the rest. If you are watching during peak channel time, like NBA ticket than some channels lose bandwidth. Normaly that is normal channels. This leads me to believe you may have a dish alignment problem. Or trees, snow, or ice problems. If you want HD VOOM maybe a option for sat. They are young and I hope they stay around and bloom. They have a better system and they have a option to use differnt mpeg decoding which will free up bandwidth and give a but less compressed picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 ---------------- On 2/9/2004 5:56:49 PM RichardP wrote: As a long-time digital satellite TV subscriber, I was wondering about other people’s experiences with DirecTV and Dish Network. I had DirecTV for several years, then switched to Dish a year ago. I immediately noticed a surprising amount of color “blocking” (macroblocking), i.e, in a scene with a large field of similar color, where there should be subtle color gradation, you can see a jagged border (of blocks) where one shade shift transitions to the next. I first noticed this on the Starz movie channels, specifically during LOTR: Fellowship of the Ring, although it also happens on other channels to varying degrees. My satellite installer's understanding is that it is a digital compression artifact, and that some channels will be compressed more than other channels, apparently based on an engineering decision about which channels get assigned the most bandwidth. Has anyone had much experience with both Dish and DirecTV and seen these artifacts? Is one company’s compression process reliably better than the other? ----------------- They both use the same MPEG II compression algos. However, I think you'll find that various brands of receivers will decompress these streams differently, resulting in the differences in color saturation, clarity, etc. ----------------- My second question regards digital audio connections. Interestingly, some basic-model DirecTV receivers (incl. some installed for free) have the optical Dolby Digital output jack, while only the higher-end Dish receivers w/Tivo have it. ----------------- Not true. The low-end RCA DirecTV models have an optical out - but it is not a DD output - it only outputs stereo audio. ----------------- I do not want a Tivo/VDR unit (and certainly won't pay for Tivo service), so I wondered if any of you think it is worth switching back to DirecTV just to get true DD sound decoding on the few movies which are broadcasted in DD? ----------------- It's definitely worth it - but don't be fooled by the receiver's jacks. If it doesn't say Dolby Digital on the box, it's not a Dolby Digital connection. RCA did this to streamline their assembly on the two basic receivers - but the "free" receivers do not contain the Dolby AC-3 circuitry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardP Posted February 9, 2004 Author Share Posted February 9, 2004 You guys have saved me a lot of hassle, if what you are saying is true about the "sham" DD optical out on the low end DirecTV receivers. Interestingly, I had looked at descriptions of receivers on some online dealers, and one dealer listed DD in the features of a specific model, while another site did not mention DD at all for that same model. That's consistent with what you state: there's a jack but not the circuitry. As far as the macroblocking, it's definitely not a signal problem, I am getting 120 out of 125 on the signal strength meter. It may be the receiver, although there are only 3 or 4 Dish receiver models, all OEM (I think), while several independent manufacturers make DirecTV receivers. In any case, I guess I will probably just have to live with it. I began as a DirecTV customer in 1995 before they started giving out free equipment, and paid $800 (!) for the receiver and dish, so I an not willing to pay out-of-pocket for any more sat equipment, higher end or not. Thanks for the decisive info! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 I have a Dish persoanl video recorder. It was free with a one year contract. There is no monthly fee. I use the DD output via Toslink for HBO, Showtime, Starz and all of the PPV movie channels. IMO, 5.1 movies are where it is at. I do not get high definition with 5.1 now, but that is next on the list when more HD is available. Dish does have motion artifacts that vary by channel. High bandwidth channels such as the Superbowl broadcast channels will not have this phenonmenon. Motocross on Dish network drives my friend crazy as there are many digital compression artifacts. Rapid motion is one of the causes as is low bandwidth. I am surprised that LOTR had the problem as it was a premium channel, i.e., it should be higher bandwidth. Signal quality is another variable. Heavy storms cause artifacts and may even cause loss of signal. (It also helps to sweep the snow off of the dish! Repaimen make big bucks at businesses that use sat. communications by sweeping the snow off of the dsih.) Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purdue2k2 Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 I've been very happy with Dish Network. The previous posts cover all of the technical stuff. On a customer service note, Dish has been great for me. I had a hard drive go out on a PVR receiver and a remote control failure. In both cases they shipped me a new item the next day without too much troubleshooting on the phone. HBO in 5.1 is the business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcoker Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 I have never had problems with DD in DirecTV. It's probable in the reciever or install. I have fiends and neighbors with Dish and in my opinion DirecTV has a better picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclonecj Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 I have had many DirecTV receivers over the years, & found the Hughes brand to be the best. My earlier units had the tiling effects that you talk about, but none of the newer ones do. I only have 1 friend with Dish, & he says my picture seems slightly better, but that could be caused by many things. Some people that live in extreme weather areas have switched from the 18" dish to the 22" & no longer have the dropouts during bad storms etc. I now use DirecTV with the TiVo built in. I bought it for $99 only because of the DD output. With the TiVo built in, the service is only $5/month & gives you 2 tuner recording. I could never live without it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ygmn Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 DirecTV...HUGHES HD receiver...DD5.1 output optical only.... one word AWESOME...it gets the direcTV stuff great picture and gets OTA local DTV and HDTV..... CABLE companies can kiss my butt now hehehehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankhokie Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 i have the dish network's old school receiver from back in 1999/2000? it only has 2 buttons on the front...channel up and down or if both pressed simultaneously- on or off. i have recently noticed the macrocoloring/tiling stuff in dark scenes or slight color variations across large screen areas. i just thought maybe it was the tv or always there...mine also treat saturated reds with jagged edges...even after i tuned the tv w/sound and vision cd. does the newer receivers from dish do any better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 I am watching "True Lies" on my Dish PVR. There is a lot of action with night scenes. My Pioneer HD RPTV shows very few motion artifacts. The picture is nearly as good as a DVD. I suspect that the display device makes a difference as do the component cables used. Digital sat. requires high bandwidth component cables. This is one of the few applications where cables make a difference as the signal is rated in megahertz. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 ---------------- On 2/11/2004 12:50:17 AM MrMcGoo wrote: I am watching "True Lies" on my Dish PVR. There is a lot of action with night scenes. My Pioneer HD RPTV shows very few motion artifacts. The picture is nearly as good as a DVD. I suspect that the display device makes a difference as do the component cables used. Digital sat. requires high bandwidth component cables. This is one of the few applications where cables make a difference as the signal is rated in megahertz. Bill ---------------- Of course, they only really make a difference on the HD broadcasts. I got a lot of static when I worked at BB because I refused to sell the $90 Monster Component Video cables to someone who was hooking up a DVD player. I just couldn't justify it - but an HD receiver? You bet. When you're dealing with signals that run that high a bandwidth, every inch counts, and I wasn't letting anyone out of the store with less than my best (as crappy and overpriced as it may have been) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 I have a dish network receiver and dish. And i get what i call the blockies to. Their are these cubes you see on solid colors. Not all the time but their there. That is the first thing i noticed when i switched from c band satellite which to this day is still a better picture to me. I wish i would of never tore it down. Ala carte, boy you didn't have to buy anything you didn't want. I miss that. Except when something broke it would cost you the price of a new digital receiver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankhokie Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 wheelman, "the blockies" that is the best description that I have heard...exactly what i see in my dish network receiver in certain scenes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 ---------------- On 2/12/2004 9:35:15 PM tankhokie wrote: wheelman, "the blockies" that is the best description that I have heard...exactly what i see in my dish network receiver in certain scenes. ---------------- Very technical aint i. You can call it pixeling or whatever, but it looks like blockies to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankhokie Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 yep, drives me nuts. well at least it is only there from the dish...if it were from the dvd, we would be talking replacement tv/dvd. so i try to handle watching "trading spaces" with the blockies every so often.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcoker Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 All receivers that output Dolby Digital will have the DD logo on the front. If it doesn't but has digital optical output it does not pass Dobly digital out. I think most newer sat reciever will output DD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thors1982 Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 I am at school now so I can't go check it. I am almost positive there is no Dolby Digital symbol on the fron of my cable box. I have a Digital Cable box and when I watch certain movies on HBO my reciever auto switches over to Dolby Digital. Does that mean I have DD or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 The Dolby Digital symbol is tiny on my PVR-508, but it is there. I suspect that the symbol is part of the license from Dolby. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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