BigBusa Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 I'm curious why belles were/are more expensive to buy new than the khorns? In any of my annual directories it shows the belle is always $300 - $400 more than a khorn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoggy Posted February 16, 2004 Author Share Posted February 16, 2004 Q-man Yes that was one of the 1st things I noticed is how the MC352 really brought the Belles alive especially down low in the bass. No wonder when I read that LaScalas and Belles have no bass I just shake my head. I get plenty of chest ponding if I crank it up and hear plenty of bass. I'm sure on some recordings I'm missing some sub bass but on the whole I'd never know the differnce. After all I've listened to these same speakers 28yrs now. The bass improved beyond description with this amp. What changes were made I do not know. So I guess unless I was to AB the Belles vs Khorns in my room it would be hard to say whether the upgrade would be worth the money. I'm still thinking about it. Right now I am pretty much thinking of my dad who getting close to the end of his life span. I have been told that the MC352 has a tube like sound quality but never having heard tubes (unless it was a very long time ago) I can't make a comparison. Mac makes great amps IMHO so I don't think you can go wrong with the MC202 but again I can't say for sure. hoggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 "No wonder when I read that LaScalas and Belles have no bass I just shake my head. I get plenty of chest ponding if I crank it up and hear plenty of bass." I am always a little mystified when I hear this statement also. I have the Belles and have plenty of Bass - No problem for my 1.8 watt per channel DRD45 amp! Of course I still have my hearing! I have a Rel Strata III subwoofer (that I used to use with my monitor speakers) in the other room that I have not even thought about hooking up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 A long long time ago, in a dealer far away, there was this hippy looking guy, who would do these demos using a Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs half-speed re-mastered LP of Supertramps's 'Crime of the Century'. There was a Klipsch Heresy sitting on top of both Klipschorns. He would crank the hell out it. L O U D. C L E A R. Even some pretty kicka** bass. Then he would ask the potential customer what they thought. They would always respond "GREAT! But I can't afford those!" He would say "Oh yes you can" "No, I really can't" they would say. "Yes, you can. The speakers playing were the little ones on top & they fit in your budget!" yeah, there's a difference. But really, in a room that size, acoustics will make a bigger difference first. and.....false corners are a compromise. better results can best be achieved thru better acoustics rather than trying to move the speakers around. Anyone who still doesn't believe/realize this is invited.......................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 Artto..... LOL, boy did that story bring back memories... I was a captive audience to this demonstration too. But you have to remember...after that, they also played the K horns. And at 14-15 yrs old...... I knew what falling in love with something other than a girlfriend was. I worked a long hot summer at a gas station, cut lawns, washed cars and saved virtually every penny and bought my Heresies. I still have them today, and would never sell them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 hoggy, cut Throat... I'm one of the guys that keeps saying that La Scalas and Belles have no bass. The reason I keep saying this over and over is mostly to try and prevent people new to these lines from being disappointed. These are physically large speakers. Very large. People tend to be conditioned to expect that the bigger the speaker, the lower and louder the bass will go. With both La Scala (which I've owned and loved) and Belle, the simple fact is that their response falls off quite rapidly below 50 or 55 Hz, depending upon room and setup. Is strong response down to that range considered "good bass"? Depends upon what you listen to. Certainly most pop/rock has little or no content below that. Kick drum impact is in the upper bass, 60 to 80 Hz range. Even a big bass drum has most of the punch and impact in the mid bass. Bass guitar can go lower, but only a few notes some of the time. Mostly is above this cutoff. If you don't listen to music with strong content in the lowest octave (20 to 40 Hz or so) you will not ever find your La Scalas or Belles lacking anything in the bass department. They'll be tee-rific. However. If you take something with low bass, *REAL* low bass, and play it through either Belle or La Scala, you'll find there's absolutely no output. Of the fundamental, at least... you might get some output from doubling (second harmonic) or higher harmonics, but the bass fundamental won't be there. For example, the beginning of the 2nd movement of the Saint-Saëns Symphony No. 3 "Organ Symphony" has a sustained tone at 16 cycles. If cut Throat hooked up his REL Strata III to the system and played that piece, you'd feel (more than hear) a deep, majestic almost organic tone supporting the rest of the orchestra - a tone that echos in a very primal sense the theme of the second movement. Without the sub, you'd hear absolutely nada. The organ may as well not be playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoggy Posted February 18, 2004 Author Share Posted February 18, 2004 Thanks for clearifying that up. Guess that's why some guys run subs. Guess even the Khorns don't go that low as they fall off at 35hz huh? hoggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbsl Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Open E on an electric bass is 41Hz, and kick drum actually comes in right around there as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Ray, By 16 cycles I understand you to mean 16 Hz. That is pretty low even for a sub. I am not at all sure the REL would play it either. I used to have that sub but only ever tested it down to 22 Hz (as low as the test DVD would go). From memory the REL manual only talks about 20 Hz as a floor. Frankly I couldn't hear much below 30Hz - but I could feel it - not entirely sure it was a feeling I liked at the lower levels. I dont think a KHorn can touch any of this anyway - doesnt that cut out at around 35 Hz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbsl Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 ---------------- On 2/17/2004 2:08:34 PM Ray Garrison wrote: hoggy, cut Throat... I'm one of the guys that keeps saying that La Scalas and Belles have no bass. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I disagree the La Scala and Belles have excellent bass down to 50 HZ. I do agree that below 50 HZ they do not have bass. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The reason I keep saying this over and over is mostly to try and prevent people new to these lines from being disappointed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That is what is great about this forum it allows people to research speakers before buying them. But to say the La Scalas and Belles do not have bass can be misleading. However you explain the difference in bass between the Khorns and the LS and Belles extremly well! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These are physically large speakers. Very large. People tend to be conditioned to expect that the bigger the speaker, the lower and louder the bass will go. With both La Scala (which I've owned and loved) and Belle, the simple fact is that their response falls off quite rapidly below 50 or 55 Hz, depending upon room and setup. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My best friend use to dj at parties with some La Scalas and NO one ever said they did not have enough bass! Years later I moved to Austin Texas which has a lot of live music. The bass I hear at most, not all but most live bands sounds like my friends LS. For rock, pop, some jazz, and country the La Scalas and Belles are excellent speakers. But as you and other have pointed out below 50 hz and they lose the bass. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is strong response down to that range considered "good bass"? Depends upon what you listen to. Certainly most pop/rock has little or no content below that. Kick drum impact is in the upper bass, 60 to 80 Hz range. Even a big bass drum has most of the punch and impact in the mid bass. Bass guitar can go lower, but only a few notes some of the time. Mostly is above this cutoff. If you don't listen to music with strong content in the lowest octave (20 to 40 Hz or so) you will not ever find your La Scalas or Belles lacking anything in the bass department. They'll be tee-rific. However. If you take something with low bass, *REAL* low bass, and play it through either Belle or La Scala, you'll find there's absolutely no output. Of the fundamental, at least... you might get some output from doubling (second harmonic) or higher harmonics, but the bass fundamental won't be there. For example, the beginning of the 2nd movement of the Saint-Saëns Symphony No. 3 "Organ Symphony" has a sustained tone at 16 cycles. If cut Throat hooked up his REL Strata III to the system and played that piece, you'd feel (more than hear) a deep, majestic almost organic tone supporting the rest of the orchestra - a tone that echos in a very primal sense the theme of the second movement. Without the sub, you'd hear absolutely nada. The organ may as well not be playing. ---------------- I am waiting on a pair of 2004 La Scalas. I already own a KSW 12 so the lower bass is not a problem if I want the really low hz. But I doubt I will ever use the sub with the La Scalas. So I have a really big favor to ask of all those people who own speakers that can go below 50 hz; instead of saying "La Scalas and Belles have no bass." Please say La Scalas and Belles have excellent bass down to 50 hz but the bass drops off below 50 hz. Think of it like this the La Scalas and Belles are muscle cars with a lot of horse power(bass). Because the Khorns have more horse power it does not mean the LS and Belles do not have any horse power. Sorry I'll stop rambling. Xman 2 channel<BR> Luxman C300 Preamp<BR> 2 Monarchy Audio SM 70 Pros<BR> NAD C540 CD player<BR> KLF 20's<BR> 2004 La Scalas in March<BR> <BR> HT system<BR> Denon 4800 AVR<BR> 2 Monarchy Audio SM 70 Pros<BR> Denon 2900 DVD player<BR> KLF 20's<BR> C7 center<BR> SB3's<BR> KSW 12 sub <BR> 34 Sony <BR> 2004 La Scalas in March Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 DBX EQs. They work for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 **For example, the beginning of the 2nd movement of the Saint-Saëns Symphony No. 3 "Organ Symphony" has a sustained tone at 16 cycles. ** The score calls for a low D-flat at that point, which I'd guess is usually played with a 16' rank, around 34 cycles. Even 34 would support your point about bass limitations. Later in the movement, incidentally, the score calls for "32 pieds" (feet), which would be 16 or 17 cycles at the bottom. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoggy Posted February 18, 2004 Author Share Posted February 18, 2004 "I do agree that below 50 HZ they do not have bass" I disagree when that statement applies to older Belles. Attached is the spec sheet on my 76 Belles. I hear the 49hz test signal loud and clear from the Cardas test record. That's suppose to be a true 49hz so if I'm hearing harmonics only convince my why that would be so. Anyone in the Seatlle area that wants to hear it contact me and we can arrange that. I've also read in this forum about the crossover for Belles/Scalas being at 500 hz and mine crossover same as Khorns at 400hz so let the discussions begin. I have the spec sheets for Khorns/Belles? and LaScalas and except for the bass frequences they are identical. In fact I'll scan and post them too. hoggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoggy Posted February 18, 2004 Author Share Posted February 18, 2004 OTOH X-man you make very valid points about informing people about what to expect. I have great respect for what you are saying. I believe Klipsch has been very fair in their specs. Why the older Belles and LaScalas go down lower than the new one (technically why) is a question I'd like someone to answer. hoggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoggy Posted February 18, 2004 Author Share Posted February 18, 2004 76 Khorn specs attached. hoggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoggy Posted February 18, 2004 Author Share Posted February 18, 2004 Notice Belles and LaScallas of that year go to quote "Bass range extends solidly to 45 HZ usuable to 40.""The responce shall be within peak-trough limits of 10db from 45 to 17,000 Hz and not more than 5 db farther down at 40 and 18,000." hoggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoggy Posted February 18, 2004 Author Share Posted February 18, 2004 Here's where it states usable bass responce. hoggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Hoggy, You need to measure the speakers to see if they meet the specifications or not. Specs on a piece of paper are mostly meaningless. As far as the specs you posted for '76 LaScalas my '76s certainly didn't meet the 18kHz at -5dB spec at all. Used with an ALK crossover (which gives about 3dB more high end at 18k then the factory AA) I was still down closer to 13dB relative to 6kHz. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 5 db down at 45Hz then -- is 3db down at 50Hz now. At any rate, this is splitting hairs. I don't know about the Belles, but the LaScalas have a nifty little bump around a 100Hz or so, which probably accounts for why most think they have plenty of bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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