homeslice Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 I just yesterday listened to both the Pioneer 55TXi and Denon 3803 side by side with Klipsch RF35's at a local dealer. I have the Pioneer 53TX and RF-3II's but from all the Denon/Klipsch combo fans I was all set to pick one up. Until I listened to both of them. The salesman played a cd and switched back and forth between the two receivers and I could immediately tell which was which. The Pioneer definitely had a more forward and detailed sound which I like. Sounded like the musicians were right in the room. The Denon sounded dull in comparison and further away. I'm sure on its own its sounds great but it just depends on what kind of sound you like. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klpschfan Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 That Denon that you had to cut the volumn way up on was most definately not set up properly. The channel levels had to be way low. We have the AVR3803 set up on RF35's, RC35, and RS35's right now and have it all adjusted and at just over 3/4 volumn that setup will blow you away. Now just about 30 min ago I had a customer buy a VSX55Txi from me, along with a RF25, RC25, RS25, RW12 setup. In his opinion that sounded better than the same speakers with a Denon AVR3803, that is what he heard, and I won't argue. To me the Denon has a more natural sound and tames the horns on the Klipsch a bit. But he liked the Pioneer better. You yourself may as well. Just don't let us influence your decision over which sounds the best. All I will do, which I have done, is give you all the features of each unit so you can see what best fits your needs. The sound is all up to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccsakura Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 ---------------- On 2/27/2004 2:30:45 PM klpschfan wrote: I just found your thread with this very same question over on AVSforums. Every single person there voted for the Pioneer, they all every one also owned the Pioneer or a Pioneer reciever. Not a single one mentioned owning Klipsch Speakers. One guy over there said that Denons were not a good match with Klipsch Speakers. He is the only one that I will say straight up has never heard the combo, he had no idea what he was saying. In my opinion, and I am sure many on this board will tell you, Denon matches up VERY well with Denon. As a retailer that sells both Denon and Pioneer, many of my customers, and indeed myself, feel that Denon Matches better with the Klipsch speakers than Pioneer does. I know I seem to be pushing hard on the Denon, fact of the matter is, I don't care what you get, as long as you are happy with it, I just think you would be happier with the Denon. Everyone makes a big deal about the Pioneer haveing I'Link. Ask youself, do you plan on useing I'link or a DVD player with I'link? That one argument is the only one anyone is offering recommending the Pioneer Over the Denon. Go ahead and buy the speakers, then see if your local dealer will let you audition the recievers on your set up for a couple days and see which you like best. ---------------- Here's different from AVS forum, they do own varies of speakers in there. However this forum most people own Klipsch....... Klipsch Klipsch and more Klipsch . Including the PM series I own 6-8 pairs of speakers and 3 Klipsch PM sub so far. I own the lowest Elite model as well(43TX). After the audition from Denon 2803/3803 I still lean towards to Pioneer(if I go for another reciever, but probably starting my seperates). Denon does give more bass but I'm not a big fan for bass. Pioneer leans towards bright side instead of having tons of bass the shakes the house. It's not as bright as Yamaha but certainly it has it's acceptable high even with Ref speakers(titanium tweeter). Personally I do like mid-high rather than shaking my house and one day got kicked out by my landlord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plissken99 Posted February 27, 2004 Author Share Posted February 27, 2004 Yeah more than likely I will end up with Pioneer then. I tend to like that brash, theatrical sound that makes the audience jump when the killer pops out. 99.8% of the time, I'll be watching movies or TV, music is mostly on my computer(which BTW, I have the Pro Media 5.1 from Klipsch ). I tend to think the Denon would be better suited for music. However, I'm still going to demo the both of them before I decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 You know you really are not going to no which is the better match with klipsch for you unless you try it for yourself. I know when on a tight budget and trying to get a smoking deal you have to gamble a little, and their is no return policy. So far with my klipsch i heard sony db, onkyo, harman, denon,. I liked them all in a different ways. The onkyo had tons of detail not to much bass. The denon has laid back highs with good bass kind of forward mids. The sony had awesome bass but the highs would get distorted sometimes. Usually on cd playback it was horrible but everything else was a different story. Now the harman avr 65 which is rated as one of their most musical receiver for cd playback is pretty smooth and has detail and bass. I still like them all though. But for cd playback my harman wins hands down. I have to say about the onkyo it was an animal on dvd playback and pcm digital stereo, but for regular cd playback it was thin. One thing i would like to add on the denon is guitar solos don't jump out like the other receivers. It still sounds good though and the denon radio is the best out of all the receivers in a 3d kind of headphones way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted February 28, 2004 Share Posted February 28, 2004 Why not Marantz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plissken99 Posted February 28, 2004 Author Share Posted February 28, 2004 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TauRus Posted February 28, 2004 Share Posted February 28, 2004 Folks, let me chime in here too. Like many said it already, take all these recommendations with a BIG grain of salt. Just pick two three units from different brands, take them home and audition. Thats what i did slightly more than a year ago. I was a long time Pioneer VSX line receiver owner. Btw, never had any reliability issues, even after I incidentally dropped the receiver while moving things to a new house. So, when the upgrade bug bit me, I naturally included Pioneer Elite along with Denon and Sony in my prospcts list. Well, Sony dropped off quite quickly. So, after a little bit of homework I narrowed down to mostly two receivers: Denon AVR3803 and Pioneer Elite 45TX, which are roughly in the same league. Unfortunately, none of the local dealers agreed to allow me to audiotion the units at home. And after some significant time that i spent in their demo rooms, the only conclusion i came with was that the only way i could really pick my receiver was to bring it home. So, i went ahead and bought 45TX at Tweater. They have if i remember correctly a 4 week return policy. So i kept the receiver for almost 4 weeks. I went meticulously through all the setup procedures using RadioShack Sound Level meter etc. I had the luxury of not jumping to conclusions and allowed the unit as well as my ears to "break in". I really liked 45TX, nice warm sound, this sexy MCACC thing, host of other useful features, great OSD. Yet, at the end of the fourth week i was still curious about the Denon unit. So I returned 45TX claiming it sounded "too bright" .... i know i know, that was bad .. At that moment AVR3803 was not immediately available, and since i already sold my old Pioneer, i could not stay wothout a receiver, so I "hired a temp" - bought a Panasonic SA-HE200 in Circuit City for less than $500. I never planned to keep it, but have to say i was pleasantly surprised by this unit. Plenty of power, quite neutral sound, nice design, some neat features, like the ability to boost the sub level in any audio mode (except 5.1 analog in) from the remote by 0, 5, 10 and 15 dB. The major drawback of this unit is its horrible manual. Setting it up was not a very entertaining process. Well, as you have guessed, it went back to CC in about 12 days and was immediately replaced by Denon AVR3803. Again, i had 4 weeks to play with the unit. It was proper;y set up and allowed to break in. In MY particular setup, Denon beat Pioneer, well and of course the much cheaper Panasonic, hands down. Powerful, clean sound, neutral to warm, but with a lot more pronounced high frequences - this all combined made my Klipsches really shine. No matter whether i used MCACC or not, Pioneer still did not produce such an enveloping and captivating sound stage as Denon did. You might say I never did the A/B test, true. I still believe that this way of testing is way more meaningfull that doing a so called A/B in the store. Btw, while listening these very same receivers on Klipsch speakers in the Tweater demo rooms i was less than impressed. What a difference your familiar home setup makes. Here, the only variable factor is the receiver, the rest is familiar: your speakers, your room, your records. You have the ability to proper;y setup the eqipment, thus being sure you are comparing apples to apples. True, the time factor plays a role here, but i say its a double edged thing: I also had plenty of time to listen to each unit and make my notes on everything, not just sound, but also other usefull features, thus capturing my user experience. I am still using Denon AVR3803 to date and am very happy with it. Now, here are a few more details about my less than stellar setup at home: Room: a large family room with "open to above" ceilings and oddly shaped openings to other rooms, in short, a vivid example of a room that should not be used as a Home Theater. Receiver: Denon AVR3803 Speakers: FL/FR - RF3II, CC - RC3II, SL/SR - RB-5II, SBL/SBR - Quintets (ooops), and, finally, the shame of my setup - RCC - Infinity C1. At times i am using 5.1 setup, sometimes add the rear channels for a 7.1 setup of sorts. Actually, here one of the Denon nice features comes useful: unlike other receivers i had, Denon has A and B speaker terminals for surround channels, not front channels. This allows for added flexibility - you can use the B terminals either for your second zone, or like me setting them up for the additional rear suround speakers. Receiver setup allows you to specify the speaker use (A, B or A+ for each type of audio format (DTS, DD, Ext IN, etc)!!! In my mind , this is a great feature. Think of it, you can use additional speakers even when listening to DVD-A or SACD. Subwoofer: well, what i have can hardly bear this proud name, but for the time it serves me ok - KLH 10" subbought a long time ago at Costco, still occupies its place patiently awaiting its replacement. Btw, yet another neat feature of Denon receiver: unlike other units, it allows you to boost the sub level by +5, +10 and +15 dB which comes very usefule if you are using a universal player for DVD-A/SACD. Well, hope this long post did not bore you to death, just tried to make one more point in favor of forgetting all recommendations and just getting the receivers to your home. 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plissken99 Posted February 28, 2004 Author Share Posted February 28, 2004 Does Marantz have a version of MCACC? I'm now looking at a Yamaha model, the RX-V2400 looks good, and it has YPAO. What othter brands have their own MCACC? This is a very important feature to me, in that everyone who has it, loves it, and it helps narrow down the dozens and dozens of choices. Also, who will elt me take an amp home for the night? The main place I go to is Ultimate Electronics, and I can't picture them loaning out recievers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RF7RULES Posted February 28, 2004 Share Posted February 28, 2004 IF YOU GOOD SOUND GO DENON OR ELITE IF YOU WANT GREAT AUDIO AND VIDEO GO YAMAHA YAMAHA RXV3300 RF7-FRONTS,REARS,REAR CENTER RC7-CENTER DVD-MITSUBISHI MONSTER POWER 5100 MONSTER CABLE Z SERIES ON ALL SPEAKERS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted February 28, 2004 Share Posted February 28, 2004 ---------------- On 2/28/2004 1:02:31 AM plissken99 wrote: Does Marantz have a version of MCACC? I'm now looking at a Yamaha model, the RX-V2400 looks good, and it has YPAO. What othter brands have their own MCACC? This is a very important feature to me, in that everyone who has it, loves it, and it helps narrow down the dozens and dozens of choices. Also, who will elt me take an amp home for the night? The main place I go to is Ultimate Electronics, and I can't picture them loaning out recievers. ---------------- Now i haven't owned a marantz but i can tell you i read probally thousands of reviews. All good with marantz pretty much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted February 28, 2004 Share Posted February 28, 2004 ---------------- On 2/28/2004 1:31:39 AM wheelman wrote: Now i haven't owned a marantz but i can tell you i read probally thousands of reviews. All good with marantz pretty much. ---------------- Same here, which is why I raised the question. I've also known several people who swear by their Marantz units. It's a really good company - one we're trying to get on board with for our entry level area - as of yet we do not carry any integrated receivers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted February 28, 2004 Share Posted February 28, 2004 ---------------- On 2/28/2004 1:35:27 AM Griffinator wrote: ---------------- On 2/28/2004 1:31:39 AM wheelman wrote: Now i haven't owned a marantz but i can tell you i read probally thousands of reviews. All good with marantz pretty much. ---------------- Same here, which is why I raised the question. I've also known several people who swear by their Marantz units. It's a really good company - one we're trying to get on board with for our entry level area - as of yet we do not carry any integrated receivers. ---------------- That would be cool. I been in the market for a marantz for awhile i just want a good deal on one with an a and b speaker selector switch. They don't put em in their entry level models. I am thinking about keeping my denon and selling my harman. Even though the harman is better. Just because how much it cost for a speaker selector box that handles that kind of power the harman has. I figured with 100 or more to boot i could put it towards a seperate amp for two channel music. Which i really listen to more. But gotta have my theater sound to. Or sell them both and get the marantz. I would bet it's better just from the reviews i have read and I emailed alot of audiogon sellers asking about their marantz's. And usually the only reason they were selling theirs was to get a better marnantz. Hands down the best reviews an man i have read alot. I almost got one or i should say i tried for about five of them but i offered to low of a price. Patience pays off though in the used market. Something will come around soon or later in your price range. I scored pretty well with the current receivers i have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted February 28, 2004 Share Posted February 28, 2004 ---------------- On 2/28/2004 1:00:34 AM TauRus wrote: - bought a Panasonic SA-HE200 in Circuit City for less than $500. I never planned to keep it, but have to say i was pleasantly surprised by this unit. Plenty of power, quite neutral sound, nice design, some neat features, like the ability to boost the sub level in any audio mode (except 5.1 analog in) from the remote by 0, 5, 10 and 15 dB. The major drawback of this unit is its horrible manual. Setting it up was not a very entertaining process. ---------------- That is what I'm using now, too, while my Pioneer rig is in the shop. And man I agree with you 100% - That thing sounds way better than it should for the money. I bought mine to use in our family-room HT rig. (but mothballed it due to my kids continually putzing with it) So, I set it up in the media room with the big horns, and I'm like "Wow, this thing actually sounds good! Very clean and articulate, but with with good solid deep bass. And to think, I only paid $320 for this thing from J&R.com! Kinda makes me question the need for high-dollar electronics, even with klipschorns. Not that most folks would consider my $1200 Pioneer Elite receiver "high dollar", mind you. But it's all relative, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plissken99 Posted March 3, 2004 Author Share Posted March 3, 2004 Well shoot me in the foot! I went today to Ultimate Electronics to compare the Pioneer 55TX, Denon 3803(It'll do until the 3805 comes out), and Yamaha 2400. Due to weird problems, their 55 wouldn't make any sound, so I had to compare the 53(not really very different), and the only Yamaha in the room was the 1400(close enough). Denon vs Pioneer vs Yamaha, Denon won out big time. I liked the Pioneer over the Yamaha, but the Denon was the clear performer. We did and A-B test with a Stevie Ray Vaughn CD, and Klipsch RF-5s(again, the best that was in the room). Of course I couldn't use any MCACC features, but i think a test without it, is more fair anyway. I noticed immediatly how awkward the Pioneer was, as a great deal of the audio was coming from the center channel, where the Denon did a better job of spacing it out between the 3. The Denon is definitly a lot more bassy. The Pioneer and Yamaha were very flat by comparison. Of course I'll do more comparisons when the 3805 comes out, but for right now it looks like Denon is a shoe in. For right now, I figure there are big advances coming in the reciever field. So I'll get a nice one in the $1,000 range, and spend the 5k in 3-5 years or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 ---------------- On 3/3/2004 5:40:43 PM plissken99 wrote: Well shoot me in the foot! I went today to Ultimate Electronics to compare the Pioneer 55TX, Denon 3803(It'll do until the 3805 comes out), and Yamaha 2400. Due to weird problems, their 55 wouldn't make any sound, so I had to compare the 53(not really very different), and the only Yamaha in the room was the 1400(close enough). Denon vs Pioneer vs Yamaha, Denon won out big time. I liked the Pioneer over the Yamaha, but the Denon was the clear performer. We did and A-B test with a Stevie Ray Vaughn CD, and Klipsch RF-5s(again, the best that was in the room). Of course I couldn't use any MCACC features, but i think a test without it, is more fair anyway. I noticed immediatly how awkward the Pioneer was, as a great deal of the audio was coming from the center channel, where the Denon did a better job of spacing it out between the 3. The Denon is definitly a lot more bassy. The Pioneer and Yamaha were very flat by comparison. Of course I'll do more comparisons when the 3805 comes out, but for right now it looks like Denon is a shoe in. For right now, I figure there are big advances coming in the reciever field. So I'll get a nice one in the $1,000 range, and spend the 5k in 3-5 years or so. ---------------- OH man no fair! Just kidding. But denon sounds extremely good with Stevey Ray. Metallica sounds better on a harman though. Denon sounds so good with blues type music. Tube like or at least the guitar really sounds like a it is being played through a tube amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plissken99 Posted March 4, 2004 Author Share Posted March 4, 2004 Yeah next time I go in there when they have the 3805, I need to do a comparison of movie audio. But as dramatic as the difference was, I can't imagine the Denon being topped. I figured I wouldn't be able to tell any difference between them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 I really like denon and harman alot. I can't figure out which is better they both have their good aspects. To my ears both are really good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 I just got the HK 7200 recently,I've had the Denons 3802/03 for the past couple years.I really just got boared with the Denon,it does most everything and pretty well. The only problem w/Denon was you really had to crank it to get the sweet sound.At low volume it just didn't move me,even at the same db level as the 7200.I also had my Denon plugged into a Parasound amp which did help low volume and high volume.With the 7200 there will be no need for external amps. The pioneer 53tx is loaded but sounds too forward for me,it was pretty nice,dunno about w/7's though. For movies they all will do a good job,for music/concerts the HK's are sweet.The 630 is a great avr(I've had it all week too)I would take it over the 53 or 3803.P.S.the auto calibration on ALL these units leaves a little to be desired,best to double check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beesley Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 Fish, So do you feel your 7200 sounds better than your denon/parasound combo? If so do you think it had more to do with the denon's processing, the parasound's amplification, or a bit of both? "I just got the HK 7200 recently,I've had the Denons 3802/03 for the past couple years.I really just got boared with the Denon,it does most everything and pretty well. The only problem w/Denon was you really had to crank it to get the sweet sound.At low volume it just didn't move me,even at the same db level as the 7200.I also had my Denon plugged into a Parasound amp which did help low volume and high volume.With the 7200 there will be no need for external amps." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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