plissken99 Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I'm considering the following receivers for my HT: Yamaha RX-V2400 Denon 3803 Pioneer 53TX The winner will be driving a 7.1 Klipsch RF-7 based system. The Yamaha and the Denon are about the same for me. They both have video upconversion(which at this point is a very minor bonus for me), good reviews and plenty of connections. The Yahama has 120w per channel, is this a bonus over the 100w that the other recievers do? The Denon has one thing going for it against the Yamaha, It's Denon. It also has Bur Brown DACS, I don't know why, but I've been told that is a real plus. Is it? The Pioneer is the one I'm leaning towards because of the MCACC. No one has said anything bad about that feature, and everyone raves about it. Main drawback to the Pioneer, is the lack of connections(3 opticals are enough for me now, but what if I want to add anything). Needless to say, my budget is $1,000 or lower. What would you do in my place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 welcome to the forum!.... i would recommend the pioneer elite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccsakura Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Another vote for Elite, don't worry about the power rating that you have Ref 7 . They give 100db+ as you push 1 watts into them It does save lots of time for auto calibration, At least I'm not patient enough to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 The pioneer looks good(55txi)looks really good at about 1k.The Denon is a great avr with lots of everything and works great w/ref7's.You prolly can't go wrong with these two.Bottom line is if you like it clean the 3803 is hard to beat,its almost too clean if thats possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 If you can listen to em see wich one you like better. Don't buy a pioneer just because of auto test tones. Go for the better amplifier. Which i no denon matches well with klipsch so would some pioneers with the mosfet power. I have a denon 1801 and it is clean with deep tight bass. The best way to describe mine is you know when you watch a movie and something crashes or a window breaks. On most receivers this literally can hurt someones ears those crashes are so trebly. My denon is laid back their it doesn't have the ear bleeding highs when watching a movie. This was different at first i never had receiver sound that laid back in the highs. Very nice for something like Stevie Ray Vaughn in concert. Guitar is super smooth and tube like. So isn't harmon but with more air around the tweeter and more detail. I never heard a newer pioneer but i have always liked the older ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 On Reference, particularly floorstanding, I'd go with Denon or Pioneer, with a heavy lean toward Denon. As is being discussed in another thread, Yammys are bright amps, and coupled with bright speakers (Klipsch) may be too much HF to stand at high volumes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klpschfan Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 If you wait another month, The Denon will be comeing down in price, if that is a factor. The 3803's replacement, the AVR3805 is due to start shipping next month. It has 120w per channel, 7 channel. ALso has a "Room EQ", which is Denons version of MCACC, although the mic will be released at a later date and sold seperately. It also has the video upconversion, as well as 3 component video inputs ( instead of 2 like the Pioneer and Yamaha ). MSRP is $1200 on it when it is released. The 3803 should be down to $750 or so by then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 IMO: Yamaha, by all means. Pioneer has quality control problems, I wouldn't go there. Denon is alright but not as good as the Yamaha. I own Denon 6-channel. I've owned Pioneer Elite which I regretted. If I were buying new, Yamaha, hands down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 ---------------- On 2/25/2004 10:17:17 PM D-MAN wrote: IMO: Yamaha, by all means. Pioneer has quality control problems, I wouldn't go there. Denon is alright but not as good as the Yamaha. I own Denon 6-channel. I've owned Pioneer Elite which I regretted. If I were buying new, Yamaha, hands down. ---------------- quality control problems??? really?.... the first that i've heard of it .... and my pioneer elite vsx-55txi blew away the yamaha i auditioned with my klipsch speakers.... plus the remote is much better than the yamaha.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Room EQ is a bad idea. Trust me, I've tried it - with a professional grade 30-band graphic EQ (Furman Q602) The only way to tame a room is with acoustic treatments. Why? Because if you stand in one spot in a room, it will exhibit a given set of characteristics. Move a foot in any direction, and those characteristics will COMPLETELY change. Furthermore, even 1/6 octave equalizers are not going to give you enough resolution to really correct things like standing waves in a room. Bass traps and paneling. You don't have to buy super-expensive stuff to do it properly - you can build your own traps with Owens Corning 703 rigid fiberglass (and hang them from the ceiling) and 1x6's, and you can use 2-4" thick 703 panels on your walls to tame high frequencies. Really cheap, and really effective. The father of modern acoustic treatment technology, Ethan Winer, swears by the stuff - and he uses it in his commercially available bass traps. And hey - if the wife thinks it's ugly, tell her she can pick out fabric from the local craft shop to cover it, and it won't hurt anything. I've seen some very classy looking homemade bass traps in several studios I've visited - people using exotic woods for the frame or staining them, with some really nice cloth covers for the fiberglass area. Oh - here's a link to a DIY bass trap, written by Ethan Winer: http://www.ethanwiner.com/basstrap.html Good quote at the end of the article: My personal philosophy is to avoid 1/3 octave equalizers if possible, because they can introduce as many peaks and valleys in the response as they remove. However, I am not totally opposed to corrective equalization. The measured response of my JBL 4430 speakers was acceptably flat, except for a 4 dB. rise centered at 400 Hz. For a single bump like this, a parametric equalizer set to the appropriate frequency and bandwidth is ideal. If your room is untreated, your response will be all over the map. I did a quick test of my room in the basement a few months ago - I had peaks and valleys as wide ranging as +/-20dB from the centerline frequency out (1Khz) and one speaker's response curve did NOT match the other. A receiver doing some cursory graphic equalizations is NOT going to help your room, but in all likelihood it will HURT your overall sound quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 ---------------- On 2/25/2004 10:22:37 PM Griffinator wrote: Room EQ is a bad idea. Trust me, I've tried it - with a professional grade 30-band graphic EQ (Furman Q602) The only way to tame a room is with acoustic treatments. Why? Because if you stand in one spot in a room, it will exhibit a given set of characteristics. Move a foot in any direction, and those characteristics will COMPLETELY change. Furthermore, even 1/6 octave equalizers are not going to give you enough resolution to really correct things like standing waves in a room. Bass traps and paneling. You don't have to buy super-expensive stuff to do it properly - you can build your own traps with Owens Corning 703 rigid fiberglass (and hang them from the ceiling) and 1x6's, and you can use 2-4" thick 703 panels on your walls to tame high frequencies. Really cheap, and really effective. The father of modern acoustic treatment technology, Ethan Winer, swears by the stuff - and he uses it in his commercially available bass traps. And hey - if the wife thinks it's ugly, tell her she can pick out fabric from the local craft shop to cover it, and it won't hurt anything. I've seen some very classy looking homemade bass traps in several studios I've visited - people using exotic woods for the frame or staining them, with some really nice cloth covers for the fiberglass area. Oh - here's a link to a DIY bass trap, written by Ethan Winer: http://www.ethanwiner.com/basstrap.html Good quote at the end of the article: My personal philosophy is to avoid 1/3 octave equalizers if possible, because they can introduce as many peaks and valleys in the response as they remove. However, I am not totally opposed to corrective equalization. The measured response of my JBL 4430 speakers was acceptably flat, except for a 4 dB. rise centered at 400 Hz. For a single bump like this, a parametric equalizer set to the appropriate frequency and bandwidth is ideal. If your room is untreated, your response will be all over the map. I did a quick test of my room in the basement a few months ago - I had peaks and valleys as wide ranging as +/-20dB from the centerline frequency out (1Khz) and one speaker's response curve did NOT match the other. A receiver doing some cursory graphic equalizations is NOT going to help your room, but in all likelihood it will HURT your overall sound quality. ---------------- excuse me.... have you listened to a pioneer receiver with the MCACC calibration??? i too tried to eq my listening spot with a 31 band rane equalizer.... not happy with the result.... my pioneer vsx-55txi on the other hand has improved the sound of my system..... i am not talking "likelihood"... i am talking reality.... and the beauty of the system is that you can defeat it with one touch on the remote..... before you say it won't work... try it..... check your facts.... it works...... as an installer - you better.... because most equipment will have it if it doesn't have it already..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 ---------------- On 2/25/2004 10:34:05 PM minn_male42 wrote: excuse me.... have you listened to a pioneer receiver with the MCACC calibration??? i too tried to eq my listening spot with a 31 band rane equalizer.... not happy with the result.... my pioneer vsx-55txi on the other hand has improved the sound of my system..... before you say it won't work... try it..... as an installer you better.... because most equipment will have it sooner than later..... ---------------- All I'm saying is that room treatments will go a lot farther towards balancing your listening environments than some paragraphic equalizer. It may sound better than no correction at all, but have you ever listened to your setup in an acoustically treated room? It's a night and day difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 ---------------- On 2/25/2004 10:38:37 PM Griffinator wrote: ---------------- On 2/25/2004 10:34:05 PM minn_male42 wrote: excuse me.... have you listened to a pioneer receiver with the MCACC calibration??? i too tried to eq my listening spot with a 31 band rane equalizer.... not happy with the result.... my pioneer vsx-55txi on the other hand has improved the sound of my system..... before you say it won't work... try it..... as an installer you better.... because most equipment will have it sooner than later..... ---------------- All I'm saying is that room treatments will go a lot farther towards balancing your listening environments than some paragraphic equalizer. It may sound better than no correction at all, but have you ever listened to your setup in an acoustically treated room? It's a night and day difference. ---------------- many people like myself are renters and cannot do room treatments.... the MCACC does something that i cannot achieve as a renter (and/or a spouse that won't allow room treatments)..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I vote for the Pioneeer VSX-55TXi. The i.link and MCACC are the way to go. I have both and am very happy. The i.link adds a digital connection for DVD-A and SACD. It is hard to beat the 55TXi on bang for the buck. The 49 and 59 series have better DACs, more connections,upconversion and more power, but are very pricey. I have owned two Pioneer receivers. Neither has any quality control issues that I can identify, other than being too darn heavy to lift. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 ---------------- On 2/25/2004 10:44:04 PM minn_male42 wrote: many people like myself are renters and cannot do room treatments.... the MCACC does something that i cannot achieve as a renter (and/or a spouse that won't allow room treatments)..... ---------------- Not true. If you can put a couple holes in your ceiling (and have sufficient skill with a spatula to fill them in when you move out), you can mount a bass trap. If you can do the same on the wall, you can mount absorption panels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bchild311 Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 I'm going to give 2 votes for the Denon. Yamaha is way too harsh, unless you like your ears to bleed at high volumes of course. My bro has the 3803, and I have the 3802. He runs KLF-30's and I'm running RF-7's. They kickass and make the klipsch's really shine. BUT, most importantly is YOUR ears. Who cares what other people think, it's you who has to decide and listen to each one and get the best feel for what you like. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plissken99 Posted February 26, 2004 Author Share Posted February 26, 2004 Sounds like the upcoming Denon 3805 will be the winner as it has all the features I want, more power, room eq, video conversion etc. I personally can't say wheither MCACC/Room Eq makes a difference, but your the first to say otherwise out of a TON of reviews I've read on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bchild311 Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 That 3805 sounds like a killer amp. I was totally blown away (and still am) at the performance of my 3802, now a couple years old. Get that 3805 and give us your review asap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddvj Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 Another Vote for the Pioneer. And this is coming from a Denon Owner. I previously owned 3 different Pioneer Elites before my current receiver, but would go back in a heartbeat if they could just figure out how to make Multi-Room/Multi-Source work (right now, you have to get a device that they don't even manufacture anymore if you want to control your second room with remote, whereas the Denon has 2nd room controls right on the remote.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 ---------------- On 2/26/2004 12:02:22 AM Griffinator wrote: ---------------- On 2/25/2004 10:44:04 PM minn_male42 wrote: many people like myself are renters and cannot do room treatments.... the MCACC does something that i cannot achieve as a renter (and/or a spouse that won't allow room treatments)..... ---------------- Not true. If you can put a couple holes in your ceiling (and have sufficient skill with a spatula to fill them in when you move out), you can mount a bass trap. If you can do the same on the wall, you can mount absorption panels. ---------------- it doesn't work if your apartment is all wood paneling and stone fireplace with textured ceiling..... not going to happen in this room.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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