Interconnects

[Griffinator]

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On 3/28/2004 7:46:55 PM TBrennan wrote:

Griffin---You didn't do a double-blind test. You could be giving a tell. Plus the testee knew that a switch was being made, he knew at any given time it was one or the other.

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I didn't say it was a double-blind test. I said it was a blind A/B test. I said it is very easy to do a pretty accurate A/B/X with interconnects, but much more difficult with speaker wire.

[Clipped and Shorn]

I.)

What do you think would be the result if I put the identical coffee beans in different label brand bags and brewed up a bunch for taste comparisons, do you think these golden gourmet palates would exclaim "I believe these coffees to be indentical" or would they find subtle differences due to the suggestibility of the situation or even the moment to moment difference in the moment? Would they be influenced by my little "dance"? Could I have put the whammy on them?

II.)

Is the order of magnitude regarding the behavior of electrons involved in producing the movement of a speaker voice coil in any way comparable to the order of magnitude produced by the electronic variations in the type of wires used in various brands of custom speaker wires?

I guess what I am asking here is just how is the voice coil (movement) able to produce audible differences as a result of these otherwise unmeasurable differences resulting from the purported electronic differences in the various brands of speaker wire? If the speaker can detect the differences (eg. in the sound that it produces) why cannot an instrument or meter be made along the same lines as the speaker's electronic "mechanism" which could likewise reveal these differences, thus making these proposed differences in speaker wire actually "measureable"?

"They" can do some amazingly subtle and finely tuned precise things with electronics (electonic measuring equipment) these days. Electronics can usually get down to levels of analysis way beyond most human senses. So I am surprised that some of these audio differences have not been demonstrated scientifically.

III.)

I recently went from using a fairly sophisticated 50 year old tube short wave receiver to using a relatively contemporary solid state transceiver and I was utterly amazed at the quantum leap regarding both the detection and fine tuning of signal energy. Extremely fine tuning of very weak electromagnetic signals floating invisibly in the air from the other side of the planet or bounced off the moon!

I am finding it very difficult to believe that human perception of signal is supposedly "beyond" physical measureability. I think if the differences cannot be shown to be actual physically, maybe we should also be looking to the psychological realm for the answers to why we hear (or think we hear) some of these differences.

It can be clearly shown that a movie is just a bunch of still photos in succession, yet the human mind thinks it sees movement, that is what I mean "psychological". Scientific measurement of the raw data cannot show or predict that "movement" will be preceived by the human perceptual system from the succession of these still photographs. Physically speaking there is no "movement", just some successive data. The human mind (cognition) completes the equation, in other words, the "movement" is "in the mind" not physically in the movie media material. (I guess in the same sense there is no music in the digital recording either).

To what extent is the perceived magical difference in speaker wire produced by the shadow "dance" of the salesman shaman? And to what extent is the difference produced by the actual behavior of the electrons?

IV.)

Could be that it is well known that (and how) we indeed could make these measurements, but there just is no economics in doing so, and, in fact, to do so might be counter to some economic interests.

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Then again, humans continue to eat crap that is bad for them even well after the advent of disclosed ingredient labelling....go figure......

(hey they celebrate their irrationality ....with war....so what do you expect?)

"we don't need no stinking ingredient labels......we just want your ...boots....."

Wire Label: "The surgeon general has shown there is no difference in this expensive wire and a cheap equivalent, the difference you hear and ENJOY is strictly in your mind (or is the result of unrelated phenomena outside the rational realm). The manufacturer is not responsible for your reality"

I bet this label would NOT actually hurt business.

k6

note: I am not saying you don't hear a difference with your wire.....so go for it......

I know I sleep a whole lot better after I vacuumed the dust under the box spring......try it.....you'll like it........

[maxg]

Sonic differences due to cables - the unprovable theorum, and yet it comes up again and again.

I started off in the wire is wire camp. A comparison initiated by a friend persuaded me I was wrong and since then I have been a believer.

Therein is the whole story - you either believe or you do not.

Could it be a placebo effect? - possibly - I just dont think it is.

Could it be that the very act of testing masks the ability to reliably declare a difference - again possibly.

Until the day someone comes up with a cast iron proof of the ability to discern differences the 2 camps will remain as intransigent as ever. As there is a distinct possibility that this will never happen we will have to wait till judgement day and ask the creator (whoever you believe that to be).

Of course if you are an atheist I guess you will have to resign yourself to possibly never knowing for sure...

In the meantime screaming for DBT evidence when someone tells how happy they are with their new cable purchases is something of a waste. The requester knows as well as anyone that to date this has not been achieved.

I am a believer who has largely put his money where his mouth is - more confidence than that in my ascertions I cannot demonstrate.

Actually I will clarify my position a little - as it seems to be a subset of the believers. I believe that money does not necessarily equate to sonic improvement in cabling (as in many other areas). I believe that the matching of cables to a system, as much as the matching of amps, pre-amps, source and so on, is what matters. Thereafter it is the matching of the whole to the environment you listen in and the music you listen to, that matters.

In other words it is quite possible that a $1,500 cable does not improve your sound over a $150 cable that happens to be a better match with your components. This doesnt mean that the $1500 cable is better or worse - merely that it doesnt match your other components as well.

and that is a bugger to prove....

[Trey Cannon]

When you guys come to Indy in June, we will set up an ABX test of speaker wire...I will show you how it is wired and go from there. I think most of you know that I am not a big dollar wire guy. I use what I can get my hands on...

I tell folks that if you are to spend $300 on wire, dont. Spend $100 and use the other $200 to take your wife out...You will get more out of it...(legal disclaimer...this is my view and not the view of Klipsch)

BTW: Thank you all for not attacking each other over this...some things could have been a bit more nice, but over all the topic has been covered in a civil manner.

[sheltie dave]

In the first four years I spent in audio showrooms, I wasted more time there than I spent in libraries. I learned two things about A/B listening tests. First, speakers that sound louder usually are perceived as better, unless the store has a matching volume system. Second, no store had a volume matching system.

While speaker wire discussuions can be relevant, I did a marketing paper in college on people who shopped for speakers at Flip's Stereo. An ad hoc survey with 200 participants showed that 191 people either could not discern, or choose the incorrect answer to a volume ranking survey of three sets of speakers with different efficiencies. The vast majority of people can't tell if speaker A is playing louder than speaker B, or speaker C, so hearing major differences in speaker wires does seem to be a push.

A more illuminating situation would be the owner who could discern which of four sources the music was being reproduced - FM, turntable, tape, or CD. If you can pass a blind test on this first level, then you may be able to discern differences in speaker wires on your system. I think there are far fewer owners than claimed on the the forum that actually have golden ears to do this first level, which renders expensive interconnects moot.

[Painful Reality]

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On 3/29/2004 10:14:01 AM mdeneen wrote:

All cables and wires are imperfect transmission media. All components are imperfect amplifiers and reproducers. Mixing and matching imperfections can and will create different sounds. That is a fact of pure science. A minor one, but still a fact.

That fact is then used, or more rightly abused, to suggest "betterness" is ocurring at each increase in COST. That of course is a "market law" not a science law! And that's when science bows out and art takes over.

mdeneen

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You nailed it perfectly!

[Randy Bey]

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On 3/29/2004 8:45:26 AM trey cannon wrote:

I tell folks that if you are to spend $300 on wire, don’t. Spend $100 and use the other $200 to take your wife out...You will get more out of it...(legal disclaimer...this is my view and not the view of Klipsch)

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I believe in cables, but I also agree %100 with Trey here. The benefit in cables is, IMHO, in better termination and quality materials. Not so much wire-rolled-on-virgin-thighs stuff but high purity copper, good dialectric insulation, good termination.

I draw the line at around $100 (OK, maybe $150 for long speaker cables) and believe strongly in DIY.

I say more power to those who do (and can afford to) spend $15000 on speaker cables. I just wish I knew how I could sell a few pairs at that price myself.

[sheltie dave]

Mark, now you are describing Sayle's Law of marketing, where the amount of money you spend directly corresponds to the amount you earn. This has changed somewhat with the advent of plastic, but still pretty much holds true. It is a lot easier marketing $6,000 speaker "interconnects" to a doctor making $300,000 a year than $600 "interconnects" to a McDonald's manager making $30,000 a year. I like the $30 12 gage speaker wire, which means...I'm making $3,000 a year and Goodwill is marketing to me

[Just1n20]

granted i don't have much experience in the field, but im pretty sure most people, as well as myself, will put interconnects at the end of their to-get list. i wouldn't spend more then $200 on any cable and maybe thats unreasonable to some.. but you figure that every component to your system runs from $200 up for whatever you spend on speakers, pre-amps and amps, interconnects. it seem to me its just another part of my system as anything else in it.. you can't say that all cables are the same... why do you think most people tell you to throw out the cables that come in a box with something you get from BestBuy? cause they are terrible.. so one could argue that cables are cost efficent up to $200-$300, or whatever you feel is true, before they don't seem worth it. from then on it depends on your passion for music, and how much your willing to spend to achieve an "audio nirvana"(as its been called before)... to each his own, i say. but don't tell anyone who finds it worth that hes wrong.

[Clipped and Shorn]

"If you listen to certain lines of reason, you can build a state-of-the-art audio system out of nothing but a $20 boombox and $10,000 worth of the "right" wire. "

Now that is a hilarious image!

Regarding medicine and science, every once in awhile it occurs to me that with the US drug industry controlled by outright capitalism and corporate greed (now running amuck) "they" might actually lose their motivation to market the expensive drug that "cures" in favor of the expensive drug that "maintains". They want you to be coming back for more, and more. This is why fortunes were made selling soap.

Another analogy is "built in obsolescence" which is certainly going on. These guys are sitting around in board rooms figuring out what kind of junk to throw into the pot to make faulty contaminated elastic, so your underwear must be tossed out long before the cotton wears out.

This is good for the cotton farmer as well and the company that sells the poison to the farmer and on down the corporate line.

If they wanted to they could make mil spec elastic....but why should they when the stockholders need new vacation houses, and the cost of political media manipulation goes astronomical.....

So why cure althetes' foot when you can sell some stuff every month to help overpaid jocks maintain some annoying itching and burning.

"They" can develop some nasty biological weapon. a gram of which can wipe out all of humanity, I think they could kill a foot fungus if they wanted to.

k6

[Parrot]

Clipped,

Any particular reason you feel obliged to always inject your political views into your posts?

[Allan Songer]

Well, at least his opinions are the right ones!

[Clipped and Shorn]

hmmm....I hadn't noticed that, I thought I was just observing what was actually going on.

But you bring up an interesting idea: that there is somehing like a "political division" between "what is actual and real" and "what is denial and self deception". The problem is that this is an "apples" and "oranges" dichotomy not destined to be sorted out by rational discussion, much like the "science" vs. "sujbective" division inherent in the speaker wire "discussion".

In a sense everything is ultimately political and thus is unavoidable.

k6

ps, how much is your health care costing you?

[Parrot]

Health care has nothing to do with interconnects. Maybe you can stretch and get some Communism stuff in the discussion, but it really pulls the discussion in a different direction.

[Clipped and Shorn]

Alan,

Do you think there is an political undercurrent in good Jazz or real Art?

k6

P,

Ideas are connected to other ideas, that is the idea of ideas and is even how the internet works. Censorship of ideas also has a political name tag, so your objection to the free flow of ideas is also a strong and identifiable political expression, and is thus not exempt from your objection.

[Allan Songer]

I employ 79 people. Medical Benefits (which include modest dental and vision plans) are a HUGE expense for us--just under a million dollars last year. In 1990 with about the same number of employees, BETTER Medical Benefits (PPO as opposed to *** with a $5 drug co-pay as opposed to a $30 drug co-pay today) were had for less than ONE-THIRD that amount.

[Parrot]

Clipped,

Klipsch does not want political threads here. If you don't like it, start your own forum.

[Clipped and Shorn]

"communism" does not have a monopoly on "anti-capitalism".....

k6

throwing around inter-related ideas is not the same as "talking politics" and is not the same as personal mud-slinging which has no place in a civilized forum.

Who says what has to do with what?

Music itself is a free play of inter-related ideas.......

without music.....no audio forum......

[Allan Songer]

Capitalism rules!

(as long as you make them play by the rules)

[Just1n20]

national healthcare... only thing that needs to be said about that. why we're the only industrialized country(probably the wealthiest as well) without it, i don't know.

now back to cables...