jorjen Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 Until I have the time to finish the ALK's, I need something for the meantime. My Khorns are stock with the "A" network, but the 2 mfd cap is leaking on both boards and I do not want to put these in a beautifully restored Rosewood set. So, my question is, would the same set of issues(discussed in numerous other threads)apply to the "A" and "AA" debate using Bob's networks? In other words, should I get his "A"'s or his "AA"'s and add the 1 mfd cap? Would I need to add the 1 mfd to his "AA"'s? Look forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 "...would the same set of issues (discussed in numerous other threads) apply to the "A" and "AA" debate using Bob's networks?" Yes. Bob's networks are basically identical to the originals. I think Bob will say you don't need the 1uf cap. I would say you don't really "need" it either, especially if you have a crossover with new capacitors in it. Personally, I would stay with the Type A unless you are doing a lot of high power stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoggy Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 If you live in the Seattle area I'll let you borrow my AA's until you finish your ALK's. They have the 1uF mod and personally I liked it much better than without. hoggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 Just replace the leaking caps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 Yeah, but then he doesn't get a pretty set of spare A's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 They're stuck in the back and no one looks at them anyhow. They are the originals, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 I also vote for replace the leaking caps. Then later on you can build your own Type 'A' s - A piece of cake considering what you did with these Khorns! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorjen Posted June 5, 2004 Author Share Posted June 5, 2004 I knew I could count on some valuable input. Thanks fellas! Dean, I was thinking the same thing. I will be using the Scott 296, so nothing overly wild on the power issue. But, what has me kind of leaning towards the "AA" with the cap is the fact that my hearing is pretty rolled off now(after 37 years of abuse, if I had only known)and I could use the little extra output from the K-77. Hoggy, Hey, Thanks alot for the offer, very generous and thoughtful of you. But, I live down in the Central Valley in California AND I do not know how long it will be before I finish or even start the ALK's. I have the parts$$$$, but no time right now. Guy and Kevin, I did think of that briefly. I was going to pick up some motor runs from Grainger. But, and I know, you , Q-Man and probably some others will think I am nuts, but with all the time, effort and expense I put into the Khorn restoration, I just cannot put the old networks in, hidden or not, short time or not. They look shabby and I just do not/cannot do things that way. I know, sounds anal, huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 jorjen, You've got an email. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 Jordan, The Type A is actually hotter on top than the Type AA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorjen Posted June 5, 2004 Author Share Posted June 5, 2004 Is that compared to the Type "AA" with the cap Dean? Or stock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 ---------------- On 6/5/2004 9:45:37 PM jorjen wrote: Guy and Kevin, I did think of that briefly. I was going to pick up some motor runs from Grainger. But, and I know, you , Q-Man and probably some others will think I am nuts, but with all the time, effort and expense I put into the Khorn restoration, I just cannot put the old networks in, hidden or not, short time or not. They look shabby and I just do not/cannot do things that way. I know, sounds anal, huh? ---------------- Sounds pretty reasonable to me. I'd probably have done the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 The word "stock" is deceptive. Old "stock" and new "stock" probably sound really different. The capacitors in the older networks have higher than "normal" ESRs. ESR is the resistance value of a capacitor. Over time, the capacitor's resistance starts to climb -- this of course robs energy from the tweeter. Adding the 1uF cap to an old AA network appears to restore some of the lost HF energy. The better solution is simply to replace the caps, which takes the resistance back down. Naturally, the lower the ESR of the caps you choose -- the more treble energy you have. So, let's put it this way: If we are comparing a new set of Type A's, and a new set of Type AA's -- the Type A's will have more HF energy. Don't think of it as a comparing something "rolled off", to something more "extended" -- think of it as simply more power to the driver, creating a bit more acoustic output. The difference between the A and AA is tweeter protection. PK made this change with the advent and use of high power solid state. The extra 2uF cap creates a sharper slope, and the tweeter inductor creates a shunt, preventing frequencies from the midrange running up into the tweeter. These two things combined result in less energy to the tweeter. The Zener diodes kick in if things get ugly. I think the AA is best used in solid state systems, high SPL listening with music, or HT applications. For your system and listening habits, there's reallu no reason to use the AA (or the AA with the 1uF "Triplet" mod). It's just more parts, and more money. The "thing" you are personally looking for will be found in the simple Type A. Now, if you're bored and really want to "play" -- order a set of Bob's "convertibles". These boards are actually both A's and AA's. All you do is move two wires this way or that -- and you can try both. A very cool thing if I do say so myself. Of course, if you think you're half deaf, you could build some Type A's with some Hovlands or Thetas -- I'm sure that would pin the old ears back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 Yep, the A/AA convertible is a nice option that Bob offers. You could have him build it up from scratch or take your old type A and refurb it as type A or A/AA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 Hey Dee, The Wright's safely arrived yesterday, and I've been enjoying them since last night. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardhead Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 My advice is simply to go ahead and finish your ALK networks and install them as soon as you can. That will give you the best sound for the least money in the quickest time. If you INSIST on investing in outdated technology, however, you could find a pair of used "A" or "AA" networks on Ebay cheaper than buying the new ones there. I bet someone on this bbs would sell you their old "A" or "AA" networks even cheaper than the used ones on Ebay, but I still think you shouldn't go that route. If you do a search of the archives here you will see many statements from various Klipsch owners on how much better their speakers sound since they replaced the stock motor run capacitors with the more modern metalized PPE capacitors--increased detail, spaciousness, etc. The motor run capacitors lose too much of the signal; the PPE capacitors don't. Measurements of the comparative losses have been posted, I seem to remember. PWK used motor run capacitors because they were the best available at the time, but they've been surpassed by the PPE's. That's no great secret. It makes me shake my head when I see people spending good money on new crossovers made with outdated components. If you did buy a pair--new or used--wouldn't they sound the same as your old "A" networks? Isn't that the sales pitch for the new ones, that they sound as good as the old networks? You'll have spent significant money without making any real improvement. Just buckle down and finish the ALK's. You'll be glad you did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mobley Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 Jordan, you have PM and email from me on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 Hardhead, I explained why the old networks sound like crap -- read my post again. The only thing wrong with the old motor runs is that they're...well...old motor runs. After 30 years, it's like having a 1/4 to 1/2 ohm resistor in series with the tweeter. So, buying another worn out set of A's or AA's off of ebay is pretty much a waste of money. OTOH, using capacitors with extremely low ESR takes you too far to the other side. You remove most of the series resistance -- and you end up with a hyper-detailed, aggressive and obnoxious set of earbleeders. Basically, you ruin the voicing. PWK voiced these speakers with capacitors possessing a moderate amount of series resistance. This resistance has to be in the circuit to hear what he and others at Klipsch heard when the speakers were released to the public. Incidently, Bob Crites uses metallized polypropylene in oil motor runs, and we took measurements comparing his cans to my Auricaps and Hovlands. His GE cans and the Auricaps I brought with me had near identical ESR. So, if you're worried about "loss", and want a little bit of lowered resistance in the circuit -- his crossovers are an excellent choice. There is nothing "outdated" about them, and his Type A's I heard in Arkansas sounded great. At any rate, ESR is only part of it. There are other properties associated with capacitors that affect their performance in a circuit, and contribute to the sonic signature of the speaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardhead Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 DeanG-- I read your post carefully the first time, and my advice stands as written: the smart thing to do is to finish the ALK's as soon as possible. Capacitors aren't the only reason the ALK is a superior crossover. You're welcome to check the archives for other reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 6, 2004 Share Posted June 6, 2004 I don't know anything about the ALKs, I guess I should read about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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