edwinr Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Please refer to my previous post regarding 'upgrade to Belle'. During recent chat with my Klipschman here in Australia, we had an interesting discussion about considering Klipschorn's instead of Belle's. The price difference in Australia is less than $3,000! His argument is 1. ultimate sound; 2. unlikely to need expensive subwoofers even for my 2 channel home theatre thereby saving $$$; 3. a life long investment - in other words get out of the upgrade cycle before I even start; 4. He needs to pay for his visit to the new Klipsch Headquarters in September! Now he made an interesting comment about Klipschorn placement in my room of 6 metres by 5.5 meters. He suggests that while corner placement is ideal, it is not absolutely essential. The Khorn was primarily designed for corner placement because of the size of the beast while also taking advantage of corner bass reinforcement. You could still enjoy Khorn benefits without corner placement. Further that if corner placement is possible on the long wall (as it may well be in my room), sealing the Khorn via gaskets into the corner is more a tweak rather than an essential. My question is, given the advice I have been given, do I really need to be that particular about Khorn placement, given other comments in this forum. I am happy, if I purchase Khorns, to board up or move a sliding glass door (which opens to the outside) in one of the corners to obtain two solid corners. The interior walls are painted brick. But any further renovation such as plastering etc to obtain an airtight seal would make Khorn purchase over the Belles probably unlikely (according to she who must be obeyed). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
consistent Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Hi, I'm also in AUS and had La Scala's and Forte's and Heresy and a mate has the Belles. I have purchased new KHorns (arriving soon) as I think the bottom end has greater definition and I have corners. Yes the corners do make a difference if you have the right room to notice. Room treatment is the most important tweak you can do. When you get your room right you will notice A LOT! If your budget can handle it and your room is right go for the KHorn.Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Edwin, to maximize the bass response of the Khorns, you DEFINITELY want to get them tightly sealed in the corners! No, it's not essential, but if you have good corners, slam 'em in there. For three grand more on the overall investment, the Khorns are better IF you are going to install them correctly. If you are not going to corner them, then the Belles are much better. I have both cooking right now, so I can hear both good and bad as far as positioning goes, and cornering the Khorns will have the dingos sitting for a listen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Edwin, Buy the Klipschorns. Don't worry about an *airtight* seal. That is totally unnecessary. If you have reasonably decent corners, the only seal that you'll want is an easily improvised one for the tailboard. Klipsch recommended stapling 5-inch wide carpet runner on each side. You can use some kind of flexible vinyl or rubber weatherstripping. The idea is to make a better fit, close up gaps, between the tailboard and uneven walls. Klipsch used to supply a gasket themselves. Do they still do that? Dean? You might want to cover up that glass with a board, but you might get by with it as is. And you likely would be all right if you put a heavy sheet of plywood inbetween the bass bin (the lower 3/4 of your speaker) and the glass door. Have the plywood extend out about 1 and 1/3 meters from the corner, so that the front edge of it is at least even with the front of the rest of the speaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 You will want a corner for them to fit in OR build a false one.. THAT is a definite! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Based on previous installations, or new ones? Three thousand US is a lot to pay for Khorns, if it is $3K more than Klipsch Heritage series LaScalas, than that is too much, the LaScalas have the same mid-range and tweeter horns as the classic Klipsch corner Khorns, they just need a subwoofer to fill out the low bass. For 3K, you could get an awesome used sub AND a wonderful pair of used classic Klipsch corner Khorns. The big ole horns do need to be in the corners, otherwise, you wont the get the lean and deep bass and you might as well get other Heritage horns. The glass door on one side will weaken the bass a bit on that side, so your bass might be about ¼ weaker, nothing a tone control (gasp!) or EQ cant boost a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 No other Klipsch speaker is as room sensitive as the Khorn. Not only do you need corners, you need the right size and shape room. A good seating position is important too. I've noticed that if there is too much furniture in the way of the Khorns on either side, the sound changes dramatically. It is important to consider all of these things to maximize the performance of the Khorn and make it worthwhile to lay out $3K extra for them. It isn't a matter of whether they will work or not, they certainly will work in a lot of compromised situations. But is it worth the extra money? That was your original question. I believe that in some rooms the Belle might be a better choice. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 I do NOT think classic Klipsch corner Khorns are more sensitive to the room than other Klipsch or conventional loudspeakers. They may have more requirements, like two equidistant corners and a large room. Khorns sit in a corner. Other loudspeakers should sit 3-5 feet away from front and side walls. Other loudspeakers off-axis sound waves reflect off the side-walls, which are perpendicular to the loudspeaker and the listener. Therefore, the sound, like a pool ball caroms off the walls and hits the listener nanoseconds after the initial wave. These reflections color the sound, but they also add a sense of space to the soundstage. The classic Klipsch corner Khorns do NOT reflect off sidewalls the same way. Their off-axis sound waves do NOT reflect back to the listener. This doesnt color the sound, nor does it help the illusory width of the soundstage. They are NOT as affected by the wall reflections as my Cornwalls or other conventional loudspeakers. I think for any stereo you need a good shaped room. Ideally one with a nice square corner (at the long end for conventional loudspeakers, at the wide end for Khorns). A good seating position is less important with Khorns than other big ole horns. With the narrow horn of the Cornwall, pointing them at the ears and sitting in the sweet spot was critical to the 3D illusion of the sonic holograph, with the larger Khorns, the soundstage is wider (and more shallow) but pointing them at the ears and sitting right dead center is NOT critical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 With Khorns you usually only have ONE place for the speakers to go, one pair of corners. With other non-corner speakers like the Belles, you have a multitude of choices for positioning both the speakers and other furniture. I stand by what I said, of all the Klipsch speakers, I believe Khorns are the most sensitive to the room they are in, and they are the least flexible for placement. Still I myself wouldn't have it any other way! If a person has a room that can accommodate Khorns, I think they are worth the extra bucks. So my advice to the original question from edwinr of buying Khorns at $3K more than Belles is good advice for anyone considering such a purchase. In my opinion, that advice is much more helpful than suggesting that Khorns don't need corners. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 One key point missing here is you need either a true or false corner to complete the bass horn loading of Klipschorns. Belle Klipsch and La Scala's were designed to operate in a freestanding field. Corner placement for improved bass response is desirable/recommended for them as well. As far as placing Klipsch folded horn speakers 3-5 feet from walls they will work in the configuration provided you have an extremely large room. These speakers need some distance between them to open up and work. Placing a set of Belle Klipsch or La Scalas 5 from a sidewalls is not practical in most of the listening environments they are situated in. The placement recommendation that came with my La Scalas was to corner them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted June 11, 2004 Author Share Posted June 11, 2004 Thanks for the feedback. It seems that the move to the holy grail (the Khorn) requires a greater level of commitment than contemplating the move to the La Scala or Belle. Klipsch themselves say that both the La Scala and Belle offer nearly 90% of the Khorn sound - but in a more compact package and affordable price. The ability to place La Scala and Belle elsewhere in the room certainly is attractive. In the heat of the moment it's easy to get caught up at the prospect of reaching audio heaven - maybe I should take a couple steps to my ultimate system via the Belle's. I can wait for some used Khorn's to come on the market in the meantime. I can see a Belle 2 channel setup backed up by a suitable sub that can be switched in and out as required is probably the best option at the moment. To Consistent; what veneer option did you choose for your Khorn's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 I really think it depends on your room. If you've got the corners, I like your idea of getting out of the upgrade cycle before you even start. However, if you are not able to get them into corners, I would opt for La Scalas or Belles. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 ---------------- On 6/11/2004 3:23:02 AM edwinr wrote: Klipsch themselves say that both the La Scala and Belle offer nearly 90% of the Khorn sound - but in a more compact package and affordable price. ---------------- I think that's being overly generous. Nothing can take over a room like the Klipschorn. If you haven't experienced it, next time you're in Ohio, stop in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Nay sir, you are stepping towards audio nirvana with classic Klipsch corner Khorns, the LaScala I heard in my living room was only a wonderful 60%, maybe 75%, of the capabilities of the Khorn, because of the crucial mid-range horn, if you have scratch, the corners and the front-end equipment, get the classic Klipsch corner Khorns and never look back!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Colin, I don't think that the Klipschorn is better than it's siblings because of the mid horn. If that were the case a Lascala would command the room like a Khorn. Rather I think it is the optimised loading of the K-33 in the corner horn and the larger than life size of that horn mere feet away. All other uses of the K-33 were afterthoughts and presented greater compromises. That last octave of cohesive horn loaded, quick bass makes a large difference also. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 OK, you are too much, I agree, only 60% then, the Khorns can be awesome, only mediocre in fact with equipment that makes many horns sound terrible.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrench_peddler Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 I started with a pair of LaScalas. Had them for about 6 months. Loved them. Sold them and got a pair of Klipschorns, and a Bell for center. Only one cornerhorn had a corner until I could build a short false wall behind the lower section of the other. I agree that the LaScala is only about 60 to 70% of the cornerhorns. I Could also tell a large difference in the cornerhorns after I completed the false wall behind the one speaker. The Belle is a great speaker but it is more like a LaScala than a Cornerhorn. Get the Cornerhorns and attach a false corner panel to the brick. Even just a 1/2" thick the size of the back of the speaker will make a difference. The following reasons are why I think you will prefer the Cornerhorns. 1. With a decent corner seal, they will seriously out play the LaScala or the Belle. Where I notice the difference was down low. 50-60hz on down. 2. Even though you may have to do some construction to the house to get a good corner the Cornerhorns will be out of the way 24/7 for the rest of your life. The Belle or LaScala will be a thorn in your wifes flesh for the rest of your life. The are 10 times larger than the Cornerhorns in actual life when it comes to used, usable floor space. 3. Would of, could of, should of. You will never have to wish for more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted June 17, 2004 Author Share Posted June 17, 2004 Whilst my initial reaction to the extra care needed for the Khorn placement over the Belle was not positive, I am gaining more knowledge and confidence that the Khorn is the way to go. I have since spoken to the original H-Fi dealer who bagged the Heritage series as p.a. speakers. He admitted he owned La Scala's for years. His p.a. comments were directed toward the La Scala and not the Khorn's. He did say everyone should a pair of La Scala's sometime in their life!!!! This dealer is now assisting me in selecting a suitable amp to go with horn's I select. He has suggested a used Cary Rocket 88 with matching pre-amp as one option - good power and lots of low end punch (this amp belongs to the store technician). Another option is a brand new Audio Note Oto SE, EL84 tubes, 10 watts class A, single ended operation, or the Audio Research VSi55 integrated. All around the same price give or take a few hundred dollars. The dealer suggests the Audio Note would be the best choice - smooth, atmospheric, plenty of power for horns. I also got the tape measure out and I think I can slot the Khorns in without too much trouble. I like the idea of lining the wall corners with a fibreboard over the brick. This would provide a positive seal without the trouble of plastering. In relation to the Khorn's mid range horn, I noticed on Consistent's post pictures of the rear of his new Khorn's, it seems to be longer than the mid range horn used in the La Scala/Belle. Is this correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 ---------------- On 6/17/2004 1:28:46 AM edwinr wrote: This dealer is now assisting me in selecting a suitable amp to go with horn's I select. He has suggested a used Cary Rocket 88 with matching pre-amp as one option - good power and lots of low end punch (this amp belongs to the store technician). Another option is a brand new Audio Note Oto SE, EL84 tubes, 10 watts class A, single ended operation, or the Audio Research VSi55 integrated. All around the same price give or take a few hundred dollars. The dealer suggests the Audio Note would be the best choice - smooth, atmospheric, plenty of power for horns. ---------------- Edwinr, I think that the saleman's nod toward the Audio Note is probably a good choice. I haven't heard it, (or the AR) but I had the Rocket 88 for a while and then sold it. It is alright, but, to my ears, not a great amp. One thing that would be interesting would be to listen to the Khorns on the bare brick before fastening the fiber board to the wall. I think that using the "stair tread" type material to seal the tailboard might well be satisfactory. At any rate, to compare the two could be readily done. I'd look forward to hearing your take on the difference. On the difference between La Scala and Khorn, I think a percentage is pretty hard to establish. Personally, I think the La Scala probably does better than 60% of the Khorn, however, the difference is startling considering that all the drivers and the crossover are the same. It "shouldn't" sound that much better, but it fills the room with music unlike anything I've ever heard. My computer study is upstairs from the listening room. I think I can even tell the difference from upstairs! Amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
consistent Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Hi Edwin, I went with Mahogany, didn't have a choice unless I wanted to wait 2 months plus shipping. They don't look too bad at all, I put some pics up here some where in the forum. I read what everyone has said here and I agree with most that after having quite a number of speakers over the years you will love the Khorns over the rest in the heritage series. The La Scala (like the Belle) has not the height (size) nor bottom end and there certainly is a difference between it and its big brother. If you go with the Khorns put 'em in first then fiddle. You never know, you may not need to do much over the anticipating & agonizing with what you could do now. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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