Audio Flynn Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 Griff, No post in a while from you that I have seen. Always nice to see real people post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted July 29, 2004 Author Share Posted July 29, 2004 ---------------- On 7/28/2004 6:05:31 PM sunnysal wrote: I also liked the way that PWK refused to call high power SS amps as amplifiers he called them "100 watt stoves"...lol... the brook 2A3 PP amps (the ones that PWK used for years to demonstrate klipschorns, belles and heresys to "ear splitting levels") come up from time to time on ebay, the last pair I saw went for $5,000 the pair if I remember correctly, I have some pics and schematics somewhere if you are interested. regards, tony ---------------- Hi Tony: I was curious as I have never sen one, nor seen any for sale. $5000.00 a mere drop in the bucket - my head falling in to that bucket. Thanks for the info - I put it on the stove's back burner LOL dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 ---------------- On 7/28/2004 10:41:58 PM Trey Cannon wrote: Most of you know I like it loud. But , for the most part 95db is as much as I need and can take for more than 1 CD. God bless PWK and the "Nugge" ---------------- Hey Trey time to get some better amps if 95db is to much Could it be that SS hash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted July 29, 2004 Author Share Posted July 29, 2004 ---------------- On 7/28/2004 6:53:34 PM NOSValves wrote: ---------------- On 7/28/2004 5:48:08 PM Tom Mobley wrote: Be sure to read the 5-line paragraph starting with the word "amplifier" on page two of that doc. points out how much power is needed to drive Khorns to 110dB with peaks to 120dB. Ten watts is the number mentioned. Below the chart it mentions that the wattage numbers presented can be halved if using two channels. more ---------------- Tom, I suggest you take what ever amp you have and a dB meter and test these numbers at your listening position. I defy you take even a 20 watt amp and hit 110dB steady state and 120db peaks (this means the SLP meter stay at or above 110db all the time) cleanly with out easily noticable distortion and clipping. Some this stuff is just plain redicules maybe the Brooks was that good but I've yet to witness 10 watts that can do it without extreme headroom above it. Also in that paragraph your refering to it clearly says "a pair of Klipschorns by a mere 10 watt per channel amplifier" So no halving to be done there Craig ---------------- Hello: If the dB meters used by our City to enforce noise ordinance and have to be calibrated before each use so the results will stand up in Court, it's been done with one fellow in blue achieving that with K-Horns and then last night he brought his amp to my house and it was achieved with Cornwall IIs. It's funny, PWK achieves it when extremely high power stoves were not available without question. Now we have monster stoves and we profess it can't be done. I think I know what PWK would say to the naysayers - he had a yellow button... dodger Edit: Perhaps 95dB is enough as his hearing sensitivity is higher. Dean makes a good point - it goes back to what Mr. Mike Dyer from Klipsch Stated. I'll paraphrase - regarding components: "if it sounds good....put it in Your system, If it doesn't sound good don't." He noted that that point seems simplistic, and that it means no more, no less. Maybe we can have some McIntosh SS owners weigh in if they have reliable meters and a reliable dB meter. I'll go with PWK stating the low watts are enough for a 4000 cubic foot square room. I do not think he would demonstrate the K-Horns with amplifiers that clipped and distorted. I also believe he had the low watt amplifiers when he ran the comparison - Live vs K-Horn with many not being able to differentiate. I believe that was in an auditorium - a little larger than the average listening room. Now that I have found the writings by PWK vs ads, I feel comfortable - especially when he writes of 1/4 watt. The world had a little less ambient background noise when PWK was demonstrating K-Horns. That's why it was Julian Hirsch I believe that wore hearing protection when going outside. The dB levels today caused by jets, large trucks, motorcycles, constant background "music," noisy restaurants, car stereos, etc., have made us less sensitive in our hearing. Aging is a factor also. I can remeber using and being around the first 1000 watt P.A. for a Hike for Hope where ther were bands that played after - one being Black Sheep having a lead singer named Lou Grammatico a.k.a. Lou Gramm - from Rochester. Now the bass player for the band that I was working for has a 2500 watt bass amp. How many over 45 year olds complain that movies are too loud in the theater? Things have changed. Perceptions, thoughts and agendas have changed. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 I think that we are what PWK called the "acid rock freaks" back then. I wonder what he would call us now. I'm still an an acid rock freak sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 ---------------- On 7/29/2004 8:55:46 AM dodger wrote: I'll go with PWK stating the low watts are enough for a 4000 cubic foot square room. I do not think he would demonstrate the K-Horns with amplifiers that clipped and distorted. I also believe he had the low watt amplifiers when he ran the comparison - Live vs K-Horn with many not being able to differentiate. I believe that was in an auditorium - a little larger than the average listening room. Now that I have found the writings by PWK vs ads, I feel comfortable - especially when he writes of 1/4 watt. The world had a little less ambient background noise when PWK was demonstrating K-Horns. That's why it was Julian Hirsch I believe that wore hearing protection when going outside. The dB levels today caused by jets, large trucks, motorcycles, constant background "music," noisy restaurants, car stereos, etc., have made us less sensitive in our hearing. Aging is a factor also. ---------------- Seems like Julian may not have had all his marbles. LOL! Wearing ear protection when he left the house! Gosh! What if an ambulance would have gone by and he hadn't had his ear muffs on. He might have gone permanently deaf!!! LOL! How you believe, think, and feel have nothing to do with the facts at hand. Now PWK could entertain a large group in a hangar with 1W, true enough, but that was background music. Background music as in you would hardly notice it and could easily talk over it. The only store demos that PWK made that have been talked about on the forum were with 60W amps. I'm sure he used lots of different amps for store demos but no one has ever said he used 1/4W amps (if there even is such a thing) for demos. If you are so afraid of power, shouldn't you sell those Macs of yours and get something safer, like a 1.8W monster? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 Very interesting, Bob! Thanks for posting that important document. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 "How you believe, think, and feel have nothing to do with the facts at hand. Now PWK could entertain a large group in a hangar with 1W, true enough, but that was background music. Background music as in you would hardly notice it and could easily talk over it." Paul, I'd hazard a guess that with your "golden" hearing, a reasonable to LOUD volume level would be from 115dB to 125dB whereas among us casual listeners with our "normal" hearing, 85dB to 95dB would suffice the range. Now I know why you need "MEGAWATTS" amps to reach "realistic" and "live" level to be able to hear all of the finesses and details of the distortion the amps produce without being clipped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 Neo, Relatively speaking, any real amp would seem like megawatts when compared to your imaginary equipment. But I wouldn't call my 30W amps megawatt amps. Anyway, raw volume level has little to do with the big picture. The *quality* of the sound at a good level really separates the men from the boys. One can have an anemic 90dB sound or a healthy 90dB sound. Same volume level but totally different presentation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 ---------------- On 7/29/2004 7:34:46 AM Audio Flynn wrote: Griff, No post in a while from you that I have seen. Always nice to see real people post. ---------------- I've been trying to keep from repeating myself lately. This eliminates a lot of threads - seems like the same circular discussions over and over. I'm still lurking, though, reading and learning over here, offering an occasional nugget of info or advice in HT or General. In the immortal words of Eeyore.... "Thanks for noticin' me" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 Paul, thanks for your "sound" opinion. Now, tell me something I don't already know and please don't bore me with the "anemic" details! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 "Eeyore" My favorite character! . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted July 29, 2004 Author Share Posted July 29, 2004 ---------------- On 7/29/2004 4:17:22 PM paulparrot wrote: ---------------- On 7/29/2004 8:55:46 AM dodger wrote: I'll go with PWK stating the low watts are enough for a 4000 cubic foot square room. I do not think he would demonstrate the K-Horns with amplifiers that clipped and distorted. I also believe he had the low watt amplifiers when he ran the comparison - Live vs K-Horn with many not being able to differentiate. I believe that was in an auditorium - a little larger than the average listening room. Now that I have found the writings by PWK vs ads, I feel comfortable - especially when he writes of 1/4 watt. The world had a little less ambient background noise when PWK was demonstrating K-Horns. That's why it was Julian Hirsch I believe that wore hearing protection when going outside. The dB levels today caused by jets, large trucks, motorcycles, constant background "music," noisy restaurants, car stereos, etc., have made us less sensitive in our hearing. Aging is a factor also. ---------------- Seems like Julian may not have had all his marbles. LOL! Wearing ear protection when he left the house! Gosh! What if an ambulance would have gone by and he hadn't had his ear muffs on. He might have gone permanently deaf!!! LOL! How you believe, think, and feel have nothing to do with the facts at hand. Now PWK could entertain a large group in a hangar with 1W, true enough, but that was background music. Background music as in you would hardly notice it and could easily talk over it. The only store demos that PWK made that have been talked about on the forum were with 60W amps. I'm sure he used lots of different amps for store demos but no one has ever said he used 1/4W amps (if there even is such a thing) for demos. If you are so afraid of power, shouldn't you sell those Macs of yours and get something safer, like a 1.8W monster? ---------------- Hello: A few years prior to his passing, Julian Hirsch wrote on the effects of the louder background noise level and stated his preclusion to wear hearing protectors. As he did evaluate equipment, he wanted to avoid the possiblities of tinnitus, lowered sensitivity, drops in his hearing curve. As for the ability to hear sirens, I wear a pair of professional "EMTECH Laboratories" which are custom molded and a 25dB reduction. They are excellent for concerts of any type, Air Shows, and could be worn everyday with the full ability to hear an approaching siren, flutter tones, two toned siren - British or American and emergency vehicle air horn (electronic actually.) Also the siren from the standard Fire vehicle with its vehicle speed variated siren is easy to hear. The professional models keep a flat, or as flat as your hearing is, frequency response. PWK does state that he demonstrated his K-Horns with the various power levl amplifiers, but the context of the 1/4 watt was that if 104 dB sound pressure level is not enough, go to a concert, note that most are not near that SPL and to go home and use 1/4 watt of your amplifier and listen to what he perceived and believed with no contradiction to my knowledge, siilar SPLs. PWK did not note that he was providing background music. A reading of his writings may be enlightening as to whether he used 60 watt amplifiers for his demonstrations. The most notable was the comparison of K-Horns vs the musicians - I believe a Philharmonic with which he used a "Brook 10 watt Amplifier." His words. His writings are very enlightening. I stated the Articles he penned in the beginning of this thread. Room does not permit and I do not have the capability to upload those articles. Needles to say PWK speaks of power in a number of other writings. I have not seen a 60 watt Amplifier mentioned. As for my McIntosh, I also have MC 240s and an MC 225, that can be switched in and out. I prefer the MC 60s for sentimental reasons - length of time owning them (1972 - $219.00 for the Pair) I also have the 60s boxes. In my Living Rom I have used a Yamaha CR 400 and it was barely working to achieve Rock Concert levels in my Room as verified by the City's dB Meter - results permissable in Court as needed when someone is cited for violation of the City Code Noise Ordinance. The results have been challenged without success in its Stated use for evaluating dB level for either compliance or Violation and subsequent citation(s). Music choices ranged from The Marshall Tucker Band, The Unusual Classical Sythesizer, John Fogarty, Eric Clapton, the Pipes of Scotland, Bach, Beethoven, Foghat Live, The Moody Blues, Jackson Browne to Dolly Parton, Alabama, the Watts 103rd Street Rhythm Band. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 "verified by the City's dB Meter - results permissable in Court as needed when someone is cited for violation of the City Code Noise Ordinance" Dodger, I like you and all that but remind me not to invite you to my next party!!! Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dflip Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 The numbers quoted in the article that Bob posted was I thought 8000 cubic feet, although it may have said 4000. In the Vol 14 no. 2 Dope from Hope in May, 1974 the numbers reflect a 4000 cubic foot room. The math is fairly simple, 4000 = length x width x height. This is a very big room, much bigger than most of us, maybe in the range of Paul's room, maybe smaller than Paul's room due to the height. To reach 115 dB peaks, 105 db listening: Klipschorns/Belles need 10 W, Cornwalls 30 W and Heresys 60 W. Low efficiency bookshelf speakers can require up to 1000 W, but this peak power will destroy the speakers. Unfortunately, I can't copy the pages as I only have Acrobat Reader. Also, please remember that 105 dB is loud on a continual basis and this is in a big room. With 8' ceilings you would have 500 square feet' with 15' width hthe room is 33" long; a 20' wide room would be 25" long. Not many of us have houses or room this big. I assume less power may be needed with slightly smaller rooms, but I am not a mathematician or engineer. It does provide a reference depending on the speakers someone has and the size of room. You also have to factor in the volume that you use to listen to music. Facts were provided just for interest, not for Neo and Paul to create another 20 pages of responses. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 ---------------- On 7/30/2004 4:30:58 PM Dflip wrote: The numbers quoted in the article that Bob posted was I thought 8000 cubic feet, although it may have said 4000. In the Vol 14 no. 2 Dope from Hope in May, 1974 the numbers reflect a 4000 cubic foot room. The math is fairly simple, 4000 = length x width x height. This is a very big room, much bigger than most of us, maybe in the range of Paul's room, maybe smaller than Paul's room due to the height. Don ---------------- Confusion, confusion, confusion. There is more than one DFH article on this subject. Vol.14 No.2 (1974) uses a room of 4000cu.ft for reference. Vol.16 No.1 (1977) which has the power level chart posted states "a reverberant field" of 3000cu.ft. for reference. My room is just under 4000cu. ft. I have a press release copy issued by Memorex of the "Is it live or is it Memorex" Ella Fitgerald commericals where she breaks a glass with her voice. Yes this can certainly be done by hitting the proper resonant frequency. But the press release said they used a Klipsch LaScala and pumped a peak input of over 1KW into it producing well over 140dB. They also cautioned against trying this at home as it would certainly, immediately, cause full and permenant damage to the ears as well as possibly damage internal organs! On one occassion I was attending a Phase Linear demo of their new 100 watt/channel amp at a dealer. They used LaScalas for the demo. The sound was so loud that when the sales rep turned the amp's mute switch on, it felt like you had dropped five feet. The LED power meter indicators were not even lighting up! He laughed and said, "well, I guess these were probably not the right speakers to demonstrate how powerful this little 100 watt amp is" In any case, it's up to YOU to use YOUR own judgement. It's YOUR ears. And YOUR speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 The measurements that speaker manufacturers give are not made with music playing through them. They are made with a frequency made by a tone generator, are they not? And probably some mathematical extrapolations to simulate different circumstances. A real life situation measurement with music playing is going to be an entirely different and more difficult animal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 "The measurements that speaker manufacturers give are not made with music playing through them. They are made with a frequency made by a tone generator, are they not?" And yet you follow them religiously, almost to absurdity! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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