Center Advice

[colterphoto1]

thanks for the real definition of timbre. I'm not trying to be difficult, but I do find this interesting as this timbre-matching is a concept I'm evidentally having trouble with. If timbre as defined is a set of qualities outside of pitch and volume, then what are those qualities that give a speaker 'voice' . I would argue that anything the speaker adds outside of the pure input is this quality. Would distortion and harmonics be a large part of this? If that is the case, then the speaker(s) in question are indeed adding 'coloration' to the source signal. If our goal in hi-fidelity is to be as true as possible to the source, then how much difference can there really be in the timbre of two different high-quality speakers of the same manufacture? Of course this characteristic of timbre is as impossible to measure as it is difficult to define. I've heard arguements on this board that you shouldn't use combinations like RF3 and RC3 because of timbre mismatch. Those speakers are made of very siimilar, if not identical drivers, crossover, and cabinet dimensions, yet that combination is found to be unpleasing? Is the purist perspective that you must use exactly identical drivers in identical cabinets at the cost of all other speaker characteristics or else suffer the dreaded 'timbre mismatch'?

With regard to dispersion and transient response characteristics, I agree they are not part of the 'timbre' makeup, I was merely asking the rhetorical question that aren't there other characteristics specific to center channel speakers in HT setups that are also important, possibly more so than a perfect timbre match?

Keep working with me gang, I'll get this eventually.

Michael- grinning at his stupidity/stubborness

[colterphoto1]

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On 8/12/2004 11:34:31 AM SCOOTERDOG wrote:

"Besides the RC7 will Not keep up with a La Scala no matter how many times you tell yourself it does. First off it is only a 2 way system and is 6db down in efficiency. It may be rated down to 45hz but at what output. "

Okay, I'll bite. You're correct, RC7 doesn't keep up to LaScala, but does match Cornwalls pretty closely.

RC7 per Klipsch literature is 98db/1 watt with low freq response 45Hz +/-3 db

Cornwall per Klipsch lit is 98.5 db/1watt with low freq response 38Hz +/- 5db

LaScala slightly louder at 104db/1 watt but worst response of 45Hz +/- 5db

Looks like a pretty even match-up to me, plus with identical amp power and using my receivers test tone and db meter, I must tweak the center channel down from 100% to about 95% for most sources. The RC7 CAN keep up with all but the largest Heritage lineup. How the heck is a Heresy supposed to be used as a center in an 'all Heritage Theatre'

Heresy is only 96db/1watt and response is 50 Hz +/- db, so it's far worse than RC7, yet gets recommended all the time as a center channel speaker. worse yet the Heresy's dispersion is 102degrees, hardly what I'd want as a center when trying to localize sounds for HT use.

[SCOOTERDOG]

2 words...Acoustical Output

[STL]

colterphoto1,

I'm sorry but you really do not understand timbre matching. That RC7 CANNOT match a Cornwall in timbre -- and that's precisely what matters most when setting up a HT. For the RC7 frequencies below 1950Hz are being played by a woofer whereas with the Cornwall that midrange horn-loaded driver is playing all the way down to 600Hz. So basically any sound within that range isn't going to sound right (if using a RC7 for a center with Cornwalls). It's a simple fact that horns and woofers just don't sound the same even when reproducing the same frequency. Even frequencies above 2kHz arn't likely to sound matched because the RC7 uses a metal (titanium) dome in the compression driver whereas the Cornwall uses a textile (phenolic) dome.

Another thing to point out is the specs you are using the justify your argument really do not take into account the dynamics of real world music and movie audio. Those specs were likely derived using pink noise or test tones. Those specs are only simply guidelines and really don't tell you much about how a speaker will sound.

The reason Heresy is a good match for the Heritage line is because it uses the same K77 tweeter (as the rest of the original Heritage line) and because it uses a horn for the midrange frequecies (like the rest of the Heritage series).

Lastly, just one of the reasons it is so important for front three speakers to match in timbre is so that when a sound pans across the front soundstage is doesn't change while panning. You can bet that the sound engineer doing the soundtrack mix for the movie has three speakers that are exactly timbre matched and expects the end user to as well!

[Olorin]

Michael,

You're closer than you know, but you're thinking too hard.

Suppose you sing a note, and I sing the same note, and we each sing them at the same volume. Does it sound the same? Probably not. The different inflections of our voices make the same thing sound very different. That is the difference between the timbre of your voice and the timbre of mine.

Speakers are the same way. People talk about "the Heritage sound" or "the Reference sound." They're talking about timbre. Same notes, different voices.

I'm going to digress hugely here and say that I'm not so sure the goal of the typical home theater system is accurate reproduction of the source. Maybe it's a goal, but at least in my case it is not the primary goal. The main thing I'm after with mine is engagement with and immersion in the environment and the story. (I also really like it when things blow up.) For me, when the sounds from the center don't match the sounds from the sides, I become aware of the equipment and distracted from the movie. That's counter to my main goal with my theater, so I try to minimize it.

I know my room needs work and my sources could use upgrading, and I accept that there is plenty of room for improvement in my system. For example, my Chorus IIs are broken, so I use Heresy 1's in the back with Fortes and an Academy up front. In "Master and Commander," the rain behind me sounds different from the rain in front of me. It's like it's raining harder back there and landing on a harder surface than it is in the front. I can accept that better than I was able to accept the Academy between the Heresies, though. When the sound coming from the screen didn't match the sounds coming from beside the screen, it drove me nuts. Maybe your tolerance for that is higher than mine, and there is sure nothing wrong with that. I suspect, though, that if you spent some time with a truly matched up system, you would have a hard time going back. Even with the mismatched surrounds I have, matching the center to the mains was a gigantic improvement.

The thing about the timbre match is that no matter how perfect your room is and no matter how good your sources and amps are, mismatched speakers still draw attention to themselves. To me, voice matching the speakers is the quickest and easiest step to making the theater room an immersive environment. I admit I'm not quite there yet, but I'm working on it.

[IndyKlipschFan]

Olorin

Your singing example was great! The resonance males have when they sing can be deep or shallow and like you said even on the same note at the same loudness levels too.

I have struggled with the Timbre thing a lot to explain to people. In my HT in the basement if i EVER seem to get started.. (kicking myself and builder to get going on this..LOL) The main reason for a Cornwall left center right as well as in the rears too using Cornwalls... Allowed me to feel the dynamics like you said seemless like it ought to be too. (I also have heresey's mounted up high on the sides as well.)

Take "Finding Nemo" when the Pelican and other birds fly in the Sydney Harbor. You glide with them up, down, left, right, and you "feel" like your in fact flying with them as the wind goes through your hair too. When things happen offscreen you "Phantom" hear it like it is so real it is creepy too. LOL

I do not have the expertise to re do a K horn center...re modified, to fit up stairs... So, I used a older vertical now on its side Cornwall II with IMO great success. As good as this is, and I have a hunch. The room downstairs while it is not finished..were almost through the planning stages and finally ready for the framing to start... The three Cornwalls will just kick A$$ and be wonderful all around. My goal like a lot of people is to make it totally seamless so I can (and you put it so elequently) Get "lost in the movie." Thats my goal.

Now just to find the right sub, and I am done!!

[colterphoto1]

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On 8/13/2004 10:16:03 PM SCOOTERDOG wrote:

2 words...Acoustical Output

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uh, gee, I was only quoting the manufacturers specifications regarding your two previous points, efficiency and 3db down point. My argument is that the RC7 is not as far off on those two specs as you might think. The beloved Heresy, however certainly is quite a bit off on these points.

If db/watt/meter is not a direct measure of 'Acoustical Output', then what is????

How do you guys use a Heresy (as center channel) to keep up with LaScalas, use the pre out of your receiver into a 300 watt amp so the 'acoustical output' is consistent across the front? there's a HUGE difference between 104db and 96 db!

Please reread my previous posts, I'm not entirely out in the weeds regarding this timbre thing either, just asking whether or not other speaker characteristics are not also important.

Not to be troublesome, but if timbre matching is so all-important, then why do so many 'heritage' front-liners use other speakers or (gasp) Reference speakers as rear speakers? In today's modern Digital Dolby theatre, aren't ALL speakers supposed to have the same efficiency/response/ TIMBRE??????? Movie directors pan sounds front to rear as well as left to right, don't they? (don't mean to sound like an ad for THX here, but isn't that where we're heading- IDENTICAL speakers in all corners of the room, no matter what?!)

[cyclonecj]

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On 8/14/2004 10:26:11 AM colterphoto1 wrote:

How do you guys use a Heresy (as center channel) to keep up with LaScalas, use the pre out of your receiver into a 300 watt amp so the 'acoustical output' is consistent across the front? there's a HUGE difference between 104db and 96 db!

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I use a pair of Belle's with Heresy center & surrounds with no power problem. When watching a movie at normal (loud) volume, the heresy center is only pulling about 10-15 watts, while the Belles are at 3-5 watts, according to my Rat Shack watt meter. My receiver settings are set at 0db for the surrounds, & -4db for the Belle's, & the SPL meter shows them all the same volume from the center seat during the setup test. 300 watts into any of these speakers would have me (& the neighbors) running for the hills.

Here is another example of timber matching as it was explained to me:

If you are standing in a field & an airplane flies overhead, you may look up & follow it or you may not even notice it, since it is a normal everyday event. But if the plane made a sudden change in sound, like engine stall etc, you would notice it immediately. The sound changes, & it draws your attention.

Now watch a movie such as Pearl Harbor when the planes start to fly overhead. As they move around the room, you become very involved in the movie. But if they move around the room & keep changing sounds, you are more drawn to the errors in sound than the movie. It is really very distracting, & your brain knows that something is wrong, & the movie is not as enjoyable.

[STL]

On 8/14/2004 10:26:11 AM colterphoto1 wrote:

Not to be troublesome, but if timbre matching is so all-important, then why do so many 'heritage' front-liners use other speakers or (gasp) Reference speakers as rear speakers? In today's modern Digital Dolby theatre, aren't ALL speakers supposed to have the same efficiency/response/ TIMBRE??????? Movie directors pan sounds front to rear as well as left to right, don't they? (don't mean to sound like an ad for THX here, but isn't that where we're heading- IDENTICAL speakers in all corners of the room, no matter what?!)

Just because a lot of peolpe are doing something doesn't make it right. A lot of people use Bose speakers, but it doesn't mean they aren't junk!

I do concede that timbre matching the rear speakers is not as critical and the front three (and I've always said that). This is simply because the listener doesn't hear any direct speaker output from the rear speakers, but rather only reflected sound. When the sound is reflected it gets changed therefore timbre matching your rear speaker is as critical IMHO. With the front three speakers the listen hears much of the sound directly from the speakers so having them timbre match is very, very important (for all the reason I and other have described).

[IndyKlipschFan]

Mike..also remember the heresey, la scala, Cornwall, belle, and k horn were three way sytems, where the mid driver and tweeter drivers are identical. Yes the horn sizes are diiferent but minus a dirscete match accross the front, these are the closest to the "Heritage" sound when mixing together. Thr drivers in say the newer REF series are different. (Your brain will identify changes in the higher notes on the scale faster than the lower ones.)

Too bad the original poster left, or maybe he is just reading this? I will say this... BOSE, or any other same speaker all around, will give the ears a good treat to your ears. This even more than with upper end lines that are miss matched with different manufactuers speakers every time.

Just rememebr no highs no lows. Friends don't let their friends buy BOSE! LOL

[chasliss]

I'm still here, although I'm not any closer solving my center channel speaker dilema. At the risk of getting beat up too bad, I'll tell y'all about my system. I have an older model Yamaha DSP A1000 with the La Scalas as the mains and the KG 1.2's as the centers. To be honest the KG's do very well as the centers. I can hear the dialog part of movies, sporting events clear. Would I be better off getting 5 Heresy's, or buying a speaker setup just for HT? I'm having a hard time even thinking about getting rid of my La Scalas. Also will the KG 1.2s do the job for rear effects speaker once I get the center speaker figured out? I didn't know my question would cause such a ruckus.

Charlie

[Olorin]

I love spending other people's money. Keep the Scalas and get two pairs of Heresies for a 6.1 setup is my vote.

[Frzninvt]

Keep the La Scala's and get 3 Heresy's, one for center, two for the rears. Keep the KG 1.2's (rear effects/centers) for the 7.1 speakers. Yes the KG 1.2's will sound good and do a great job for their size I have a pair of KG1's and they are a hell of a nice speaker. Having the KG 1.2's series'd or paralled for the center channel was a good idea on your part and is the equivalent of a KG 2.2V or 2.5V but a Heresy will be much closer in timbre' than the KG's and there is still a use for them in the rear.

So essentially you do not need to part with anything just build on to what you currently have.

As stated the rears are perceived not as essential as the front three but I can tell you when I went from Heresy II's to another set of Cornwalls in the rear it made a big difference in my system, so perhaps the size and type of speaker in the rear is more critical in the rear position than some people think.

[J.4knee]

I just tried one of my Heresy II's as a center this weekend in place if the industrial La Scala top section with no bass unit. Even without the bass cabinet the La Scala match in squawker and tweeter across the front is much more seamless and unified sound than when the Heresy was there. Now I can't wait to get my bass section up and running. The Heresy sounded great but even it was not an exact match across the front and it should not be. To me this solidified the unified identical front array postulation. Having Heresy II's across the back works great but I suspect I would be even more delighted if they were all La Scala's. Unfortunately I lack the room to do so and am relegated to Heresy's as my surrounds which is fine, but IMO there are these few rules you should go by:

1. An all Heritage HT is nearly impossible to beat. I cant think of any thing that would beat it.

2. You really need to match you front array and surrounds as closely as possible.

[colterphoto1]

BUMP, another one for the archives. A discussion on center speaker selection erupts into a classic all-Heritage or all Reference vs mixed system debate about TIMBRE and other speaker characteristics.

[marksdad]

frzninzt is right on the money, i too had the cornwall rc 7 setup up front, i am a 2 channel guy for music, but for ht i used to go 5.1, i had alot of trouble finding a heritage center so i settled on the rc7, now dont get me wrong the 7 is an outstanding speaker, but i just does not work with heritage, during ht the center sounded great, that is until the transitional sounds arrived, a plane might fly across the room or bullets wiz by.... as they passed the heritage they would pass seamlessly, but when they arrived at the 7 the sound would kinda jump sometime weaker, sometimes stronger depending on the track, but never equal. once i located an lascalla center, i moved the 7 upstairs to my sons rig, and walla, i now had a seamless presentation, reference and heritage are both great, but they are voiced very differently

[eq_shadimar]

Wow I can't believe that I missed this the first time around. I am 100% for correct timbre matching (I have even converted a few with my system).

My system started out with Cornwall mains, RC3, and RS3's and it is now all Cornwalls. I have used Heresy's as center and rears. Look at my web page for all the different configurations that I have been through. The Heresy was a great match for the Cornwall's until I listened to DVD-A and SACD. Then the difference was quite apparent! I think that for movies that you can get by or make do with a less than perfect match but not for multi-channel music.

I agree with the other posters to get Heresy's for the center and surround if you don't have the room for the larger speakers. If you get lucky on some eBay auctions you can pick up all of the Heresys for less than the cost of the single RC-7.

Laters,

Jeff

[Olorin]

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On 9/13/2004 7:08:53 PM colterphoto1 wrote:

BUMP, another one for the archives. A discussion on center speaker selection erupts into a classic all-Heritage or all Reference vs mixed system debate about TIMBRE and other speaker characteristics.

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If somebody bought a single La Scala at a yard sale, nobody would recommend he go to Good Guys and pick up an RF-7 to make a stereo pair.

[psg]

Matching a Heresy to a pair LaScala's might be a good timbre match, but the 8 dB difference in efficiency is a bit of a killer. Having said that, theater reference is -17dB on my receiver with LaScala's as mains, and I rarely watch a movie above -25dB or so. So I could live with 8 dB.

It's interesting that old LaScala docs state 104 db at 1W and 4 feet (and I remember seeing 106 dB stated for 1 meter).

I object to the "voice" comparison to describe timbre. It's not a speaker's job to change the voice so, to me, timbre implies colouration. The current docs for LaScala state 53Hz-17kHz ±3dB. That's 6dB of variation across the board, equivalent to 4 times the power. The old docs said 45Hz-17kHz ±5dB, or a ten-fold variation in power. There's lot of room for coloration in either of those specs.