Audio Flynn Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 I noticed an improvment in my RB-5s in the HT system. No crack involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Current riding on the outside of the wire increases resistance. As frequency increases, the current moves to the surface of the wire (which is why audiophiles go for really thick wire -- to increase surface area, and so lowering resistance). However, Skin Effect hardly even comes into play at the frequencies we are exposed to in audio. The effect only has a real world impact at RF. Whatever the losses due to Skin Effect -- no human ear can detect. I also don't see how adding runs of cable lowers resistance. For example: one eight foot run of 12AWG cable has less resistance than two, eight foot runs of 12AWG cable. Also, adding runs of cable lowers inductance and raises capacitance. In truth, adding another run of cable for biwiring -- is simply adding one hell of long jumper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 A guy down the street smokes crack. I hear he loves his Bose 901's with Soundcraftsmen amp and preamp. So ya see, he is proof that drugs can enhance your audio experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scriven Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Are you saying you like the sound? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMays Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Not long ago I tried an experiment. I bought some 10 guage electrical wire. This has fewer strands, etc. I ran this to the bass section of my RF-7's and ran my 8TC Kimber Kable to the mids-highs. The sound was as bad as I have ever heard. The bass was muted and very thin. If wire doesn't matter then why wouldn't that work? I drew the conclusion that many strands of lesses guage was far superior than a few strands of a thicker guage. Try it at home and see for yourself...it's pretty cheap. I wish someone could "splain" that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 ---------------- On 10/12/2004 4:50:55 PM D-MAN wrote: There is no technical difference between bi-wiring or running 2 parallel sets of the same wire cables. No exactly true. There can be an order of magnitude less current on the wire going to the highs as opposed to half the current when running parallel sets of wires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Dean, sorry, not the case. Current travels on the outside layer(s) of molocules - I suppose that we could call that the wire surface. Also, that has NOTHING to do with resistance, as current ALWAYS finds the path of least resistance. The fact that it tends to travel on the "surface" is enough to state that the "skin effect" is NOT particularily resistive in nature or at least displays the least resistance to current flow. Make sense? The skin effect has been picked up by the marketing media as a "bad" thing to be avoided, but in reality, it is simply a condition of current flow and cannot be avoided. That's just the way that electricity works. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylanl Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 I would like to see any tests run with cables when individuals did not know what cables were run. I bet the outcome would shock a few people. Doctors have been known to prescribed Sugar pills to people who have had forms of sickness. Odd enough the sugar pills worked. Why?? because the problem was perceived, never really existed in the 1st place. I said it before " I want to believe " on this one but where is proof that is credible? The reason I want to believe is that I spent my hard earned $$$ on wire. I have not been in audio that long but is there not some documented (real) proof on this one? If I had it I would post it. Now it is your turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 "Dean, sorry, not the case." Are you referring to the statement: "Current riding on the outside of the wire increases resistance..."? "Skin Effect has been known and equations derived for skin depth vs frequency as far back as 1915. It is the tendency of alternating current to flow near the surface of a conductor, thereby restricting the current to a small part of the total cross-sectional area and increasing the resistance to the flow of current. The skin effect is caused by the self-inductance of the conductor, which causes an increase in the inductive reactance at high frequencies, thus forcing the carriers, i.e., electrons, toward the surface of the conductor. At high frequencies, the circumference is the preferred criterion for predicting resistance than is the cross-sectional area. The depth of penetration of current can be very small compared to the diameter." So, if one believes "Skin Effect" increases resistance (which is what is happening), they increase the diameter of the cable, which gives more surface area, thereby decreasing resistance. Yes? Again, the issue is a complete non-issue at audio frequencies -- honest. "Current travels on the outside layer(s) of molocules - I suppose that we could call that the wire surface." Uh, I don't think it works that way at all. What you are calling "current" is actually just "electron flow" -- and the electrons aren't even "flowing". Free electrons are displaced as new ones are added. It's more like bumpity bump -- down the line. It's kind of like this... ...but really looks like this: At any rate, most of what constitutes "electricity" is already in the conductor (free electrons). "Also, that has NOTHING to do with resistance, as current ALWAYS finds the path of least resistance. Kind of a weird statement if you don't mind me saying so. You start by saying it has nothing to do with resistance, but then you say it's because of lack of resistance. The first part of the sentence is true, the second part nullifies the truth of statement. Skin Effect doesn't occur because the current is finding the "path of least resistance". The fact that it tends to travel on the surface is enough to state that the "skin effect" is NOT particularily resistive in nature or at least displays the least resistance to current flow. Make sense?" No. I understand what you are saying, Skin Effect is an "effect" related to frequency, is evidently caused by self-inductance of the conductor, and in fact increases resistance because less of the conductor is being used. "The skin effect has been picked up by the marketing media as a "bad" thing to be avoided, but in reality, it is simply a condition of current flow and cannot be avoided. Yeah, if you're doing Megahertz and Gigahertz. "That's just the way that electricity works." Thanks for the education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 As a side note -- if one believes Skin Effect has a significant impact at audio frequencies -- you don't have to biwire, since high frequencies would ride on the surface of wire, and the lower frequecies would move along below them -- closer to the core. If I have time tomorrow I'll post the stupid picture I did up yesterday with Powerpoint, showing how I see this biwiring thing. After you have about 50 crossover boards pass through your hands, you begin to figure out how utterly stupid the concept is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthurs Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 The other day I smoked some crack and did about 12 hours of listening, probably the greatest listening session of my life, system never sounded better, slamming yet tight bass, liquid mids, airy highs, it was if the players were right there in the room with me....I was so fired up I sat right down and wrote a 22 paragraph post about the experience and couldn't wait to share it with you guys.....only to realize I was listening to the rocks in my backyard, and typing on one of my wife's planters....that's some good advice to stay off the crack when listening, best heed it..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMays Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Several years ago I bit the bullett and bought Kimber Kable 8TC (11 guage I believe)for my mains (8 foot run) and 4TC (I think 12 guage)for the mid and highs to replace the 14 guage single run Monster cable I had. I did this as my dealer said I would be able to tell a huge difference so I took a "leap of faith" so to speak as I could not tell a darn thing in their listening environment. After connecting one speaker I listened to see if I could tell a difference. I could tell that the bass was tighter and the speaker just sounded more "open". To make sure I was not wanting to "hear" it just because I spent the $450 or so, I left the system just that way until my wife got home from work. All speaker were in place with no trace of what I had done. When she came in and had a chance to relax I asked her if something sounded different with the speakers while we were enjoying some music. She listened for a little bit and commented that something sounded wrong with the speaker that had the 14 guage speaker wire. Again she had no idea of what I had done. We both listened some more and she commented that I needed to contact someone to get either the stereo fixed or replace the speaker under warranty. I then came clean. Granted she had a 50/50 chance of guessing something was "wrong" with one speaker, the difference was clearly there. We did not need a "parade of people" listening and judging to tell this. It was an initial reaction that was immediate and clear. I'm not an EE and do not have the knowledge on moving electrons, etc. But I will say I do know what I hear. The same thing happened when I used Kimber KCAG solid silver interconnects however that may be a different thing all together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardhitter Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 I agree, you are smokin crack!!! The reason you are hearing such a big diff. is that you have lowered the resistance! But you would have had the same results using Moster Z Cable, wired single. The only time it is going to really pay off, is if you are Bi-amping. And if you can afford to do that, then I coming to your house for a party. Beers are on you!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Dean, wow. In the words of Darth Vader - impressive, very impressive. But having been forced through Navy A-school as an EW in the late 70's, I had to learn this crap, and get tested weekly on it. If I failed a test, ZAP - out to the fleet as an undesignated seaman. Not a good thing. Needless to say, incentive was high to get this stuff down. Anyway, what was taught to me at that time was that current always takes the easiest route. That inherently means the path of least resistance. Current also flows through a metal conductor on the outermost layers of molocules. Hence, the path of LEAST RESISTANCE is on the outermost layers of the conductor. This is called the "skin effect". It is an unalterable fact of current flow through a conductor. I think what I said before was pretty clear. So either the Nav paid alot of money for alot of bull (which could happen), or your sources are skewed. I'll take the govt. version as I had first hand experience with that, so it'll take alot for me to "adjust" my thinking on it. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Very interesting and informative thread guys, I'm just not sure which it is good or bad information. As an addendum to the firehose/straw analogy, what happens when you keep the pressure (voltage) the same, but instead of a hose or straw, you're running directly into a 36 inch sewer pipe? Your "pressure" is going to disappear quickly, and you'll have nothing but a slow, steady flow out the bottom of the pipe at the other end. Of course, if you adapt the end of the pipe down to a 1/4 inch pipe, once the sewer pipe fills up your flow will be esentially the same, yet you'll be able to shoot water 20 feet across the yard. Is it possible to have too big of a wire between the amp and your speaks? Yes, I realize that even if you're using 000 gage wire and put in a specific voltage to one end, the voltage on the other end will be the same until it crosses a load, minus the small drop it takes to get through the wire, and that the wire will carry the current just fine, but somewhere in the middle of the too small and too big wire has to be an appropriate sized wire for the application. Considering the voltage and current flow we're talking about in a home stereo, I wouldn't think it needs to be a HUGE wire to do the job without any limitations to flow. And in case you can't tell, I'm not a big fan of the esoteric speaker wires. I like to think I know enough about basic electronic theory that I can convince myself that, without some mathmatical proof, all the special winding techniques and terminations aren't going to stack up to a hill of beans to what reaches my ears. JMHO, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Champaigne, I knew that the water analogy was a potential problem when I made it. Where water would display an increase in pressure by going through a smaller pipe, as it were, electricity does not increase "pressure", that is electrical pressure is voltage. Voltage is determined by the source driving the circuit, not whether the wire gets small (or increases resistance) or not. In my example, I left voltage the same. I increased current, which of course, is the flow or quantity of water in the analogy. Perhaps water isn't the best example, although as some past science projects, water can be used to replicate simple electrical circuits such as amplifiers and such. The speed of electric current does not increase where it does in the water analogy, the electrical "pressure" (voltage) does not increase, as it does in the water analogy. The increased water pressure resulting from a smaller pipe idea would be explained by the tendency to lose current and voltage to power dissapation as heat in the circuit, where no water is lost in a smaller pipe. Looks like I chose a bad analogy... DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Maybe I should run some 350mcm. But then again the weight of the wire would colapse the speakers. But would that be impressive or what? Hi-Fi man killed in his home by falling hookup wire. Wife questions the use of 4000 amp wire. I love this forum. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scriven Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 ---------------- On 10/15/2004 5:14:50 PM D-MAN wrote: ... Current also flows through a metal conductor on the outermost layers of molocules. Hence, the path of LEAST RESISTANCE is on the outermost layers of the conductor. This is called the "skin effect". ... ---------------- D-Man, I agree that current flows through metal conductors on the outermost layers of molecules. That is where the free electrons are. However, that is not the same as traveling on the outermost layers of the wire. Skin effect only happens at much higher frequencies than audio like radio and microwave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Thats why in high power RF applications they use larger tubular lightweight center conductors such as Hardline and Styroflex. In Sonar applications they use a big wire feeding Magnostrictor 5000watt elements. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Yes Mark, thank you. Stated much better than the way I tried to do it. JJK -- yep, even though I have NO idea what that stuff is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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