Classical talk (long)

[dubai2000]

Gentlemen,

I admit that much as I enjoy (at least most of the time) this section of the forum, I am also fond of reading about music (performances and recordings) as can sometimes be done in the Hi-Rez section of the AA. Now, we also have such a weekly thread in our DVD section, but as far as I know, nothing of the kind exists for classical music. I know that this type of music is enjoyed be relatively few people, but one think I learnt from getting together my Klipsch-based rig: with the right setup, I have broadened my musical horizon and there might be a few people around who wouldnt mind getting to know more about that classical stuff. Another prejudice is that classical music is kind of elitist and one needs a lot of musical education to enjoy a piece by Beethoven of Mozart. Let me say straight away that I am no musician, was far too lazy to learn a musical instrument (to my parents dismay), cannot read a musical score and am not really familiar with musical terminology and a lot of classical genres (such as chamber music, pre-Beethoven etc.). So any professional musician, please ignore my ignorance.

So why am I posting in this section of the forum? Well, first of all because I feel that it is my audio home where I have learnt a lot (hope you dont object to a bit of sentimentality) and second: without my current gear a lot of musical treasures might go unnoticed...and that IS old-fashioned 2 channel stereo.

But enough of those preliminaries. Today I want to turn to music which I not only know relatively little about, but also which is not easy to reproduce/listen to at home organ music. I remember many years ago I visited a spacious church when suddenly the resident organist started to play. I dont recall what he played (I think on piece was by Liszt) but I suddenly knew why the organ is sometimes called King of Instruments. And try as I might, I could never even approach that feeling with my home gear. Obviously a number of well-known factors come to mind: not only the speakers inability to play that low, no, also the space in which such an instrument is played. Even at relatively modest volume it felt as if real waves were hitting me...unforgettable!

Now which organ piece do many people know (even without being aware of its composer or title? Answer: J.S. Bachs Toccata and Fugue BWV 565.

The recordings:

Lionell Rogg (I) on a restored Silbermann organ (originally from 1761)

on :Harmonia Mundi HMX 290773

Werner Jacob also on a Silbermann organ but in a different cathedral

on: EMI 5738782

Karl Richter at the organ in Victoria Hall, Geneva, Switzerland

on: Decca 455291-2

Wayne Marshall at the organ of Coventry Cathedral (UK)

on: HMV 572165 2 (only from HMV shops or their internet site)

Lionell Rogg (II) organ unknown

on: EMI 572556 2

Simon Preston organ unknown, but I think a modern German instrument

on: DG 463016-2 (a compilation disc)

I should add that L. Rogg (I) and W. Jacob are part of boxed sets containing all of Bachs organ works.

So what about those discs? First of all, there is something in all of those recordings which one might like, but still there are also quite a few differences. If you are looking for those foundation shaking depth, go for the Richter (actually recorded in...October 1954...in stereo!). Otherwise his performance reminds me of a Bach style which is no longer fashionable these days. To my ears he tries to imitate a lot of orchestral legato and his tempi are on the slow side (actually the slowest of the bunch), but his registration (hopefully the right word) is not too plain. If you are looking for huge sound, the Jacob is for you, here on can tell that one is listening to a large instrument in a large space. I guess even more spacious must be Coventry Cathedral, but Marshalls recording lacks a bit of impact (though as a fan of ambience information I like that disc, too). Preston? Fast, articulate playing, but the sound of the organ is not at all my cup of tea (at least at full power). The same I am about to write blandness of tone being bright most of the time) mars Jacobs recording as well. Better in that respect is Rogg(II) but most musical pleasure I got from Rogg (I). He varies the colour of the instrument (is that what is called register?) often enough to keep your interest in the piece alive. And I think this IS one of the reasons why at least to my ears - organ music can sound terrible and be...I admit it... boring! But if you are looking for something different, see if Harmonia Mundi hasnt issued a compilation of this set.

Right, thats it for today. Next time (if there is any) will be shorter and I really hope others will help to turn this into a regular forum feature. Personally Id be happy to read whichever classical discs you have enjoyed (or not!) and if thats interesting for you as well, please post your impressions/likes/dislikes. Thanks for reading.

Wolfram

[LarryC]

Wolfram (this is long, too),

Wow, this is a challenge, isn't it? A sort of "Members Weekly Music Recommendations" for classical. Thebes' weekly invitations have held up very well in pop music, and have revealed (to me) the truly vast knowledge base in non-classical music among forum members.

Can this do the same here? From long before I knew about the forum, I have been perpetually surprised by how reticent most people are to talk or write about classical music. Pop music, movies, you name it, folks love to chat about it. Classical, well, how shy can people get? I've done a fair amount of tutoring and mentoring people in getting to know and feel comfortable with classical, but it's still like pulling teeth to get much discussion of it.

I'd like to suggest that as many folks post here as feel like it, as well as regular buffs -- including those who are just starting in classical listening and would like to say something about what they think!

Oh, well -- you (and others like PaulP) have always shown great depth in performance and recording values, which I don't have, and I don't usually have a lot of recordings of any one work for comparisons. I think Bach organ works are a good starting point -- everyone knows the Toccata and Fugue in D Minor, BWV (Bach Werke Verzeichnis, the standard catalog of his works) 565, the most famous. Organ works are great, perhaps sensational, for showing off the Klipsch ability to render broad, open, very fine detail, that's amazingly close to how the original sounded! For low notes, it's bottom D would be 36 Hz on a 16-ft. pipe, well within the K-horns's ability to produce if not so much the Belle's or LaScala's. Two other, equally fine Bach organ works are:

Toccata in F, BWV 540, with powerful fast pedal work which the bass horn shows up beautifully.

Passacaglia in C Minor, BWV 582, which starts off with a solo bass line that goes down to the lowest C, 32.7 Hz in a 16-ft. rank. It seems like PWK was intent on being able to produce that note from the K-horn, which requires it to be as big as it is.

My other recommendation for THIS WEEK:

Tchaikovsky, Piano Concerto No. 1, BMG 60321-2-RG, from a War Bond concert broadcast in 1943 by Vladimir Horowitz and NBC Symphony cond. by Arturo Toscanini. This is a real hair-raiser of a performance like almost no other of this work, though it suffers some from being a bit too feverish. The CD's sound is greatly improved over the earlier LP, IMO, but still has the edge and graininess of the pre-tape era. For historical interest in one of the great conductors and pianists ever. I do think the SACD re-issue of the Van Cliburn Tchaikovsky is much more listenable and has remarkable orchestral clarity, though I also think that Toscanini seemed to have a better overall conception and interpretive detail.

Thanks, Wolfram!

Larry

[Erik Mandaville]

Although classical provides the bulk of what we listen to, I am still such an inexperienced listener, and just do not have the wealth of knowledge in terms of good recordings of both well-known and less well-known composers -- and this includes more 'modern' classcial composers of the last century. I would also very much enjoy such a feature, and perhaps it need not be a 'formal' dept. of the forum per se,' it can be something to talk or post about whenever one might feel the interest to contribute and/or respond. It would really help me expand our collection of classical music, since I am often bewildered by the quantity available, as well as how to go about making a good choice in terms of both performance and recording quality.

Speaking of Bach's famous 'Tocatta and Fugue,' some of you may have heard of the California Guitar Trio. Marie and I saw them 'open' for King Crimson some years ago, and while King Crimson is very much a progressive and innovative band made up of such well known guys as Bill Bruford, Robert Fripp, Tony Levin, and others, The California Guitar Trio was a group of extraordinarily talented acoustic guitarists we had no earlier experience with. The show started two hours late, and the CGT came out and started playing. We were simply astonished! The performed Bach's famous piece (mentioned above) in a way that shivers down my spine. Certainly this isn't the traditional way the piece is played, but it was nonetheless exceptionally well done.

Speaking of Bach, I have mentioned here before a transcription for guitar of Bach's Goldberg Variations. Again, amazingly good guitar playing in terms of sheer technical ability. The recording is close, but this CD is just amazing through the Klipschorns. Custom guitars were built for this project, since a standard 6 string is not capable of the lower octaves required by the work.

Erik

[Coytee]

With all your disclaimers, one might think you two don't (think) you know a thing about classical music, relative to "affacaniados".

Well... I'm here to make you two look like the Einstein's you are, relative to ME.

Years ago, circa 1978??? I was at local high end sound store. the guy put on a record that was "classical" music, primarily organ as I recall. In that one two minute audition, I fell in love with Klipsch, AND ever since then, I've wondered about finding some music by Noel Rawlsthorn.

Soooooooooo, if this above question doesn't raise anyones ire with me and MY ignorance Anyone ever heard of him and know if "stuff" by him is available on (horrors) cd?

(you may let the flogging of me begin... )

[thebes]

I just showed up for the free Klipsch t-shirt.

I think this is a great idea, because at times, more so lately, I have enjoyed classical music but I will tell you straight out I'm not a huge fan of organs (except at ball games) because I have this connection in my mind between organs and church services at funerals and "Here Comes the Bride".

Now my ex-wife might have a different perspective on this-raised catholic she and her two sisters were drafted to play the church organ (a really big-one) for various functions. As soon as the nuns would leave the church they'd start playing the Beatles, Elvis etc.. She says it sounded way cool.

Can't really add anytihing to this particular topic but I will be checking in and adding some input when appropriate.

[LarryC]

Richard, I'd never heard of him, but found this via Google: "Noel Rawsthorne (b.1929) was Organist of Liverpool Cathedral for twenty-five years and City Organist and Artistic Director at St George's Hall, Liverpool. He was also Senior Lecturer in Music at St Katherine's College, Liverpool, until his retirement in 1993 after thirty-nine years in education. In 1994 he was honoured by the university of Liverpool with an honourary degree of Doctor of Music."

His music appears to be arrangements of mostly classical works, so you were certainly right about that. He just didn't write the originals. Organ really DOES do great demos of Klipsch, doesn't it?

I am still such an inexperienced listener, and just do not have the wealth of knowledge in terms of good recordings of both well-known and less well-known composers -- and this includes more 'modern' classcial composers of the last century. I would also very much enjoy such a feature, and perhaps it need not be a 'formal' dept. of the forum per se,' it can be something to talk or post about whenever one might feel the interest to contribute and/or respond. It would really help me expand our collection of classical music, since I am often bewildered by the quantity available, as well as how to go about making a good choice in terms of both performance and recording quality.

Erik, that's EXACTLY what I, at least, think would be very worthwhile for folks. The trick is for people to be comfortable in making those comments and asking the questions. It would be great to be able to simply say, this is what you should hear, take note of, listen to -- but we just can't get into other peoples' mind's ear. I've come to believe that Beethoven gets people to listen and pick up more detail and meaning more than any other composer; I am aware of a forum member who recently bought an entire set of Beethoven symphonies and another of the piano sonatas. It may take him a long time to listen to many of those, but it could be a very interesting experience. I am thinking of posting my own observations from listening to the Beethoven 9 symphonies in sequence if that would be helpful -- just thinking about it.

Great comments, both of you -- Larry

[garymd]

----------------

On 10/25/2004 6:29:06 PM Coytee wrote:

With all your disclaimers, one might think you two don't (think) you know a thing about classical music, relative to "affacaniados".

Well... I'm here to make you two look like the Einstein's you are, relative to ME.

Years ago, circa 1978??? I was at local high end sound store. the guy put on a record that was "classical" music, primarily organ as I recall. In that one two minute audition, I fell in love with Klipsch, AND ever since then, I've wondered about finding some music by Noel Rawlsthorn.

Soooooooooo, if this above question doesn't raise anyones ire with me and MY ignorance

Anyone ever heard of him and know if "stuff" by him is available on (horrors) cd?

(you may let the flogging of me begin... )

----------------

I happen to have a Noel Rawsthorne lp, "Organ Spectacular" at Coventry Cathedral on Angel Records. Mostly marches. I've played it once or twice. Good performance. I'd be happy to send it to you. I may never play it again and would rather someone get some use out of it. PM me if you're interested.

Great thread BTW and I'll contribute what I can (probably not too much for now but I'm learning).

[edwinr]

For friends who don't know much about classical music, one of my favourite recommendations is "Pearls of the Baroque" by I Musici released on the Award label. This contains some well known tunes from Albinoni, Handel, Corelli Pachebel and Bach.

[WMcD]

I'm with you folks.

As a kid there was some classical and some show tunes around the house. In college the radio station was throwing away the classical stuff and naturally, I snatched it up.

In my present life, I listen to Chicago's lone classical station WFMT every day at the office. What a gem.

Bach has a special allure. When King Crimson mentions "the Pattern Juggler" I always think of JSB.

I was able to learn a short section of the tocotta. He starts a very engaging pattern on the left hand. Sort of like chop sticks on one hand. Then passes it to the right and starts a perfect companion on the left to be played at the same time. Then does it again. (I might have that mixed up; left and right. It probably gets passed to the pedals, too.)

It is kinda like a "round" of row, row, row, your boat. Just more complex in its inital form and progression.

It may not be quite "counter point". Larry will know.

Part of the fun is trying to let the brain follow the intricate combinations of melody. JSB wrote the Nintendo or Magic Mario of tones. You don't get to push buttons. But it is always going off on a new adventure and you have to pay attention.

= = =

It seems that Bach never quite went out of style. It might be that Vivaldi did. In college we were sitting around and the classical station played some. Everyone sat up, saying, what the heck is that. This may be hard to believe in 2004 where The Four Seasons is so overplayed.

More gifted people have said that Vivaldi wrote 400 different pieces, or (quip) 1 piece 400 ways.

= = = =

An interesting "modern" is Philip Glass. Very repetitive. OTOH, he may just be eductating us dummy types. You've just listened to the same melody for 20 bars, now I'm gonna change something. Does that sound better?

- - - - -

Classical performances are such a change from "pop" and "rock". There are many performances and each has a little, or great, variation.

Best,

Gil

[davmar]

Great concept. I will like checking out these recommendations. I like browsing through the classical stuff too, I even like some opera. One that I like is Aria, now a DVD that has several arias filmed like music videos, with different famous directors and now famous actors in each segment. The videos are a little risqué and some have dialog but I tend to listen to the soundtrack more than watch.

[maxg]

Nice idea Wolfram.

I too am not a huge fan of the Organ. I dont mind it ocasionally - and Tocatta and Fugue is one of the most pleasant pieces to listen to - but in the main there are just so many other options to take up my classical listening sessions that it does not get much of a look in.

I have never understood why there is such an elitist aspect to classical, and especially Opera now that we can listen to anything we want on a system. I guess it is a hangover from the days before systems when one would have to go to a performance to enjoy an Opera. As such evenings were primarily the domain of the "upper classes" I suppose the image has been forever linked.

I have been planning for an age to put together a recommended listening list for those that are yet to sample classical, or those that have merely dabbled. This list would, of course, be based entirely on my limited exposure to the medium and my personal perferences.

I suppose if there is any message I would want to get across for potential new recruits to classical it is this. You dont need any prior knowledge of music in any form to be able to enjoy classical music. Everyone starts from a zero base - and the music is just the same. What might happen is that as you learn more the reasons for your enjoyment of a particular piece might change or evolve (not necessarily always for the better) but that is all.

Classical (along with all its sub-categories) is music that stands the test of time for me. Whether you are listening to music from the 17th Century or the early 20th you can rest assured that these pieces will be listened to from this point forth for all time.

I think what we should aim to do, those of us that already enjoy classical, is to select, at first, a single example of each composition type (Symphony, Piano Concerto, Violin Concerto etc. etc.) for people to get a grip on what it is all about and then to add further examples of each till the point we have something between 50 and 100 examples - a road map to classical.

Initial selections should, I think, be those that contain as many well known tunes as possible - there is something to the thrill of recognition with a piece that really can bring the unaccustomed listener in.

With that in mind the Tocatta and Fugue is probably the prime Organ piece for now.

What say we for the others? Symphony, Piano Concerto, Violin Concerto, Opera etc etc...

I think on a one of each basis I would go for:

Beethoven Symphony No. 5

Tchaikovsky 1st Piano.

Beethoven Violin Concerto

Dvorak Cello Concerto

Bizet Carmen Opera

For the Opera I would suggest a highlights disk to start with - I would guess there would hardly be a single Aria on it that anyone has not heard at some point.

Comments - better options??

[dubai2000]

Thanks for all your comments. This should indeed remain fun, so don't be afraid of too many formalities and as work will be starting again next week, I certainly won't have that much time to delve into so many disks.

All contributions to this thread have been valuable so that it's difficult to comment on them individually.

I like Max's idea and choice of works, but please feel free to talk about any other piece...and don't be put off by any so-called experts. Just post your impressions, ask question (which hopefully someone will answer).

Opera might indeed be a stumbling block for a lot of people: 'Gosh, most of time I don't understand what they are singin' anyway and it's in one of those b----y foreign langueages, too'.

Yes, that's true, but look at it like this: there is a story going on and -perhaps- music just underlines/clarifies the emotions conveyed by the text, hopefully printed and translated in your CD's booklet.

Carmen? Sure, why not? - except that I am no great Carmen expert, but perhaps Max can step in? And the idea of a 'highlights disk' is certainly a good one.

Would anybody mind Verdi's 'Otello'?

I am no great fan of organ music either (nor of J.S. Bach for that matter!) but I found it quite interesting to see how well my gear can reproduce those various instrumental colours.

Wolfram

[Erik Mandaville]

Bach to Bach, I remember very clearly the day our elementary school music teacher introduced the class to the concept of 'fugue.' My parents often had classical music playing in the house, so I had already had a little bit of exposure. Classical music wasn't a new 'sound,' but my own preference at the time was for the Beach Boys, Donavan, Cat Stevens, Iron Butterfly (I loved the drum solo on -- let me see if I can spell this right -- "Inna-godda-da-vida").

So, our music teacher opened up one of those self-contained record players/built in speaker, and put the needle down on a Bach organ fugue. I honestly remember that I was absolutely transfixed by it! I'm being totally honest about this! The piece was the also very well known "Little Fugue in G minor." Without knowing it at the time, I think what helped in the appreciation of the work, was that it wasn't overly long; which for the shorter attention spans of younger kids was appropriate. Our teacher asked us to think of a relay race, where one person starts running, and hands the baton off to someone else, who then takes off with it -- the only difference being that the original runner is still going!

In any event, I think it was the challenge that I liked so much. Rather than following lyrics, I was trying the best I could to keep track of the different parts that were being layered one-on-top-of-the-other.

At the private boarding school for high school (while my parents were living and working in Arabia), I remember neighbors in the dormatory thought it was odd that I would sometimes play classical music, which was in addition to Yes, Pink Floyd, Genesis, Gentle Giant, Pat Metheny,etc. Many of them even thought those bands were kind of odd. I used to sort of laugh to myself about my neighbor, who had an enormous and very expensive stereo system (crammed into a tiny dorm room)and he literally had a single album -- Meatloaf's "Bat Out of Hell," Very inspiring, indeed! I had a small but good sounding system, consisting of a Sansui integrated amp, a Dual turntable, and my beloved JBL speakers. I was so proud of those speakers! But I had hundreds of records, and quite a bit of classical mixed in with those -- Baroque Lute music, almost all of Segovia's recordings, and some others.

Bach's Little fugue in G minor is something I still very much enjoy, and it sounds much better through the Klipschorns than it did through those small JBLs (which were actually very good speakers in my small room).

Erik

[dubai2000]

Nice recollection this, Erik. I guess this mix of classical and non-classical LPs (in those days) happened with me as well. The idea of comparing a fugue to runners is a nice one - though I am not sure if I had fallen to this one...I was more into the so-called Wolf's glen in Weber's opera 'Der Freischütz'...I mean ghosts, a creepy valley at night and all sort of createures hovering around in the dark...almost as 'cool' as...YES, that drum solo in 'In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida' (LP cover in hand) .

Wolfram

[Erik Mandaville]

"Equally important, and perhaps where most of the fun lies, is the artists' personal rendering of these characters. Different artists will all bring a vastly different personality, voice and interpretation to a role"

This is so true! It's maybe similar in certain respects to modern dramatic interpretations of classic novels from such writers as Thomas Hardy, Charles Dickens, Bronte' 'sisses', etc. I have seen different film versions of the same novel, and so much of the overall impact relies, as you say, Mark, on the artist's (and in this case actors and producer's)approach and interpretation of the material at hand.

...just so you guys know, I'm not neglecting my poor wife! She's on the sofa, cruising the internet and just relaxing. I'm about to groom our dogs and finish laundry, so hopefully we'll have some more develpment of this thread throught the day!

Erik

[dubai2000]

Mark,

I couldn't agree more with your post. Of course those disks of 'highlights' take away a lot of important musical context (and I admit I have never gone for those myself), but it might be 'easier' for someone not used to classical singing/music to convince him-/herself to put on one CD compared to two or more of a complete set.

Of the operas mentioned as a 'starter' I'd also include Mozart's 'Figaro' (though I love those mentioned above as well). My 'first' opera recording was actually a piece that caused a lot of uproar after its first performance: Richard Strauss' 'Salome', followed by some really 'heavy stuff': Wagner's complete 'Ring des Nibelungen'. Well, those got me hooked for life .

Wolfram

[ssh]

The Telarc Classical SACD Samplers are hybrid, & the CD, 2 channel & multi-channel SACD layers are very good. I recommend them, novice or not.

The Segovia Collection_ (4 CDs & a booklet) is remastered at 96/24 bit from original mastertapes. I recommend it for those wanting a variety of classical guitar music. Disc 4 is all Bach. (Andres Segovia, guitar)

SSH

[garymd]

I have a 2-CD set called "The #1 Classical Album" or something like that. It has about 40 tracks of the most popular classical pieces of all time. Great for the beginner. For those who always wondered who wrote this symphony or that overture. You'll recognize almost every track. If anyone wants more info, let me know. I think it's in my car and I can bring it up to the office after lunch. Not for the seasoned classical fan but should help some folks get their feet wet so they know what direction they wish to pursue.

[LarryC]

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On 10/26/2004 11:16:20 AM mdeneen wrote:

I think Wagner's Ring, is deservedly an entire "world" of music unto it's very own. There's opera, and then there's Wagner!

Yes, certainly Figaro is a good intro as is Magic Flute.

mdeneen

----------------

I think Wagner's Ring "cycle," a set of four long to very-long operas conceived as a single (but very complicated) huge story based on Norse legends and written by him over a 24-year period, is one of the astounding works of Western art, even more so because Wagner wrote the libretto as well as the music (!), and because much of it was written in exile where he had no opportunity to hear what he was writing. Begun in the early 1850s, Wagner only got to first hear the entire tetralogy in 1876, in his new opera house in Bayreuth.

However, I suspect the classical music world is divided into those who like opera and those who usually can't get excited about it, and I am one of the latter. Wagner may be a heavy dose to start with. I DO think, however, that opera is made more enjoyable if one can watch with visible ongoing translations -- subtitles in VHS/DVD recordings, surtitles in the opera house. So, I have a couple of recommendations:

Wagner, Das Rheingold (the first and shortest of the Ring cycle): James Levine, conducting the Metropolitan Opera, at one time available on DG VHS 072-518-3 and probably now available on DVD. The unequalled (IMHO) power and richness of Wagner's music and the complicated libretto and plot show up well here. Two and a half hours. No other composer ever matched Wagner's drama, expertise in writing for orchestra, and marshalling the greatest orchestral power ever, in my view.

If that's too heavy, see if you can rent the old, fascinating Ingmar Bergman movie of Mozart's Magic Flute. Don't be fooled by the beautiful lady soloists -- not typical, I think -- and Bergman added some plot twists not in the original, but it's fine entertainment. I don't have a tape or DVD number, if it's even available on the latter.

I second recommendations of Puccini's La Boheme and Bizet's Carmen. Masterpieces both.

Larry

[dubai2000]

Yes, the idea of opera on DVD might indeed do the trick for some people, though some staging/directing can be quite different from original intentions (but still very interesting!).

Das Rheingold is indeed the shortest of the Ring operas, but not in Levine's hands . For a spectacular recording the late 1950's Solti recording on Decca is hard to beat (and his singers are mostly fine, too - though when you come to Wagner singing there is no way of escaping the 1940s/early '50s...IMO).

Wolfram