7 speakers by way of the Lexicon

[Erik Mandaville]

I now have 3 front channels (driven by my Horus monoblocks and a restored mono 6V6 PP amp); two sides (Lowther horns connected to Moondogs with AVVT meshpate 2A3s; and two rears (homebuilt dynamic driver 2-ways powered by a kit-built single-ended 6BQ5 stereo amplifier.

Until my new networks are done, I've been using the type AL with virtually everything taken out except what's needed for a simple type 'A' network (no L-pad).

I can't describe how staggeringly good this is. The room, speakers, amps, everything....vanshishes, leaving in its place air, space, and enveloping music; however with a still very solid frontal image. I jumped back into two channel only mode for a minute, but it now sounds harsh and flat. Granted, there is still great clarity thanks to the Klipschorns, but I have found what no amplifier or preamp upgrade could ever bring to all of this.

Erik

[Born2RockU]

Congratulation my brotha...you are now in heaven....and it is the season to be JOLLY !!!!

[Deang]

"...but I have found what no amplifier or preamp upgrade could ever bring to all of this."

Time for my daily Mandaville jab.

1) You're not timbre matched.

2) Doesn't the Lexicon count as preamp "upgrade" -- especially when you've been using a passive?

That Craig guy has ruined you. You used to be a purist. Next comes EQ's and pro-amps.

Seriously though, how are you getting the rest of those speakers to keep up with the front array?

[Born2RockU]

*** That Craig guy has ruined you.***

Thanx a lot DEAN .

I'd like to invite you personally over to my castle for a listen. Where are ya located ?

I am sure we would have a great time...and I promise NOT to ruin your purism.

Happy Holidays.

[Erik Mandaville]

Hey, Craig!

Dean: You're right, I'm not exactly timbre matched. The L-pads will take care of the midrange blast I'm getting from the type AL autoformer. I built a temporary type A network out of it until I finish my new ones -- hopefully tomorrow, since the L-pads didn' arrive today.

Yes, the Lexicon is an excellent linestage, but it is much more than that -- which to me is sort of obvious.

Passive preamp? Not for the last couple of years, at least. Please see attachment of the preamp I built this past summer.

Dean: Let me respond to your observations this way: This multi-channel surround by way of the Lexicon is better than any 2-channel system I've had, which includes the Horus/Klipschorns/Denon/DIY grounded-grid 6SN7 preamp arrangement I have been using most recently. It's better by a very large margin.

Erik

[Deang]

You guys are SO serious. You oughta know I'm just giving you grief in fun.

I'm still waiting on Jordan's Heresys. When they get here, I'm at least going try the three channel get-up. I don't really have room for anything else unless I go in-wall. I am looking forward to the experiment.

I have a pretty good handle on what you're hearing down there. I've heard some excellent multi-channel setups.

[Born2RockU]

DEAN : Please make an effort to stop by, if you come to Houston. You and I are the same age !

Happy Holiday's

[Marvel]

Erik,

Such a nice, utilitarian look to it. Why do we always want them all fancied up?

Didn't you post the schematic of that some time back?

Marvel

[sfogg]

Dean,

"1) You're not timbre matched"

His front three are (or pretty close) which is far more important then the surrounds. Turn around while listening to your K'Horns... does it sound the same?

"Next comes EQ's and pro-amps."

He already has EQ and some pro-amps are very good.

"how are you getting the rest of those speakers to keep up with the front array? "

I'm sure he isn't, and he doesn't need to. The surrounds are reproducing ambient queues, not the main portion of the music. And the Lex. is handling the bass management for the surrounds and center.

Shawn

[Deang]

Turn around while listening to your K'Horns... does it sound the same?

LOL, THAT is a trick question!! I have a swivel chair, and I've done that plenty. I had been listening to some high quality car audio systems, and as we all know, the majority of the sound comes from the rear. Turning my chair around, I lose the imaging -- but it sounds real close to the same. I don't think that's the answer you were looking for though.

This would be a pretty boring place if we didn't have people trying different things and reporting back. I think you're all insane, but I really like reading the impressions.

Three channel definitely interests me. I have no choice but to use a Heresy. I'll have two, so I suppose I could stack them. I suppose I'll try some different things and just see what works the best for me. I suppose I'll use a VRD, change the rectifier, and use KT-66's strapped in Triode. That should give me a pretty close match to what I'm actually hearing now.

[sfogg]

" I had been listening to some high quality car audio systems, and as we all know, the majority of the sound comes from the rear."

We don't all know that... there are plenty of car audio systems that are balanced to the front. The better ones use a center channel too.

Funny you mention car systems.... next time you are at your local BMW system check out the BMW 7 series. One of the options in it is a 7 channel surround sound music system by.... you guessed it... Lexicon. It even has stereo subwoofers for a version of Lexicon's 'Bass Enhance.' BMW was so impressed with the sound of this system they redesigned some of the interior for more optimal placement of the surround speakers. If Land Rover is more to your taste they have Lexicon surround in them too. So does Mercedes Benz..... and Rolls-Royce...

" I think you're all insane, but I really like reading the impressions. "

Your loss....

"I'll have two, so I suppose I could stack them."

Try one at first. Two will comb filter which reduces one of the benefits of having a center channel in the first place.

Shawn

[Erik Mandaville]

I just finished these nutty networks I've been working, and am tired.

I just wanted to mention that Marie's car system is extremely good, and indeed has a center channel. It is among the most important reasons I started experimenting with this -- I loved the way it sounded, and we both always thought something was missing with the big rig in our listening room. I can say without a doubt that things have very much changed in that respect.

I'll post a pic or two of the networks tomorrow. I have no schematic to share, but could probably draw one up when I have time. I built it basically from the ground up, with parts I had. Craig Born2 very kindly ordered me a pair of L-pads which both arrived and were installed this evening.

Erik

[Deang]

"We don't all know that... there are plenty of car audio systems that are balanced to the front. The better ones use a center channel too."

Cut me some slack. Most people I know don't drive a BMW, Mercedes, or Rolls. I typically don't venture into these dealerships either. Most of supposedly decent systems I've heard in the Toyota's, Mitsubishi's, and Michigan derivatives still have the better speakers in the back.

" I think you're all insane, but I really like reading the impressions. "

Your loss....

Like I said. I've heard great multi-channel. It's cool -- and very expensive to do right. No reason to get snippy.

"I'll have two, so I suppose I could stack them."

Try one at first. Two will comb filter which reduces one of the benefits of having a center channel in the first place.

Hmmm. Forgot about that. O.K., one it is.

[Griffinator]

Come on, Dean, you know you've been looking for an excuse to get into some Belles - so pick a pair up and use one as a center.

If you don't like 3-channel, I'll help you go out and find a quadrophonic preamp and some 4-channel records and you'll really have some fun!

[sfogg]

Dean,

"Most of supposedly decent systems I've heard in the Toyota's, Mitsubishi's, and Michigan derivatives still have the better speakers in the back."

Most of those are not doing any sort of surround processing, they are just duplicating the two channels over four speakers. You could do that in your system by just wiring up more speakers or getting slightly more advanced with more amps and Y cables.

That is nothing like what Erik is doing in his system. Erik is steering the ambiance out of the recordings and directing it to the surround speakers and taking the central material and steering it to the center. The surrounds and center are being bass managed. All 7 speakers are being time aligned with each other...etc..etc..

Real surround sound is starting to pop up in more and more car systems as it is a natural fit in them. I think Volvo's have a Dolby Pro Logic II based system now and there are others as well. Nissan has used a center speaker in some of their cars over the years.

"-- and very expensive to do right."

Expensive is relative. Erik already had most of what he needed to setup his system like this. The key part if he decided to purchase one (the Lexicon) should cost him less then he paid for his DVD player. I would bet which of those two Erik thinks made a bigger improvement in his system. (I have a Denon 2900 too) And he needs a center channel as he is borrowing the Las. I recently sold my fourth LaScala for $250 without a crossover in it. IOW, he could do it for quite a bit less then half of your latest amp quest.

Starting with just a two channel system and nothing else it could be done well for what that amp cost, perhaps less depending upon the deals found and the choices made.

And of course that isn't considering what any existing pre-amps, DACs, crossovers, could be resold for to help recover the cost.

Shawn

[Daddy Dee]

Erik,

Interesting. Thanks for posting. I'd love to hear that setup.

[jdm56]

Interesting thread. I always enjoy "stories from the mountaintop". You know, when we, at least for awhile, attain some degree of sonic Nirvana.

My own take on multi-channel w/k-horns: I used a pair of k-horns with a belle center, with surround chores being handled first by a pair of RS7's, then a pair of heresy II's. I used this set-up for about a year, powered by a Pioneer Elite VSX-55TXi receiver. Admittedly, no Lexicon, but really not bad. I generally thought most two-channel recordings did sound better with some dpl-II processing. And some sounded better in "5-channel stereo". But almost everything sounded better with some surround processing than it did in plain old stereo. But that was before my own re-discovery of sonic Nirvana via two small speakers placed away from room boundaries, the details of which I won't bore you all with here.

[Guy Landau]

7 channel is already 5 too many.

[edwinr]

Two channel for music is just fine by me. But I can see merits for a centre speaker when listening to home theatre. Off centre listeners tend to miss out on the action a bit when watching movies in two channel.

In fact I've left my name with a couple of shops to call me if some Belles come in. You never know what I might do if I get tempted.

[Erik Mandaville]

If this is insane, I'm very glad to have 'gone over the edge.' The fact that listening to music has been transformed into much more of an experience, where I can close my eyes and feel like I'm within an enormous hall or arena, listening to my favorite song writers, composers, vocalists, and musicians, is a sure sign that I have now completely lost sight of reality. More than anything else, it confirms the fact that I have no understanding of what music should sound like when reproduced at home. Serious listening can only take place in the realm of two channels, and this extraordinarily talented digital processor I have been using is nothing more than an expensive sham.

Guy: I know of people who would say that two channel stereo is one channel too many, and that good monophonic equipment is what provides the most faithful illusion of the real thing. Your statement was rather global, IMO. Did you mean to say that 7 channels was 5 too many for YOU? If so, I must have missed that part...

That honest statements about personal preferences are so quickly targeted by those who don't have fist-hand experience with the issue under scrutiny is a curious characteristic of this forum. Or should I say a curious characteristic of some of its inhabitants. I started all of this just by mentioning the fact that I had made and done some listening experiments with a little box developed decades ago by someone who not only thought horn speakers had some distinct advantages over dynamic drivers -- and that speakers tended to sound better when placed in corners -- but also went to some lengths promoting the theory and application of a DERIVED center channel. Guess the fella's name!

Marie spent some time in the sweet spot yesterday, while I very quietly and discreetly moved from surround to two channel. She described two channel as sounding 'ok,' but very flat and 2 dimensional. To use an art-related desicription, two channel for me has become something of a carefully delineated relief sculpture, where the Lexicon with dedicated amps and speakers provides an impage that can be seen from all directions -- yet, at the same time, the view is largely a frontal one -- as if viewing a sculpture in a museum. In other words, the extra channels gives me (perhaps not some of you -- which is fine)a more realistic and believable representation or illusion of experiencing real live and present music than I have ever heard. It's much more than what a simple component upgrade might provide in the way of a new and possibly better amplifier or preamp (as is often said, "Been there, done that.). It's a completely new, amazingly involving, and incredibly fun way to listen to music. If saying that is yet another confirmation of my insanity, I'm sorry that some of you are so 'normal.' I respect your right to have a different opinion or listening preference.

Erik