fgarib Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 ---------------- On 1/6/2005 6:07:20 AM edwinr wrote: ---------------- On 1/6/2005 2:58:02 AM fgarib wrote: Is it just me? ---------------- Probably, fgarib. ---------------- Edwinr, I thought as much . Although I can't help but shake the feeling that I may be doing something wrong. (Or at least my equipment is!) There seems to be no punch in live recordings. And I just can't seem to get an image of the music at all... Does this get better with tubes? -F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 Fgarib, no, I don't think it's just you. That's just Edwin being difficult Live recordings are pretty tough to engineer as well as in studios, although there are some very good live ones. In the studio, you can control so many more parameters, and of course do retakes if necessary. On a live stage, you have comprimised rooms and interaction of all the instruments on stage (not isolated in studio sound booths). Live vs. studio recordings are just different balls of wax. Anyway, my experience parallels yours, but I still enjoy live recordings! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoriated_Tiger Posted January 6, 2005 Author Share Posted January 6, 2005 Most of us seem to hover around 80-90.. we'll throw the 160 out as a statistical anomaly, those speakers must have unobtanium drivers Last night I was thinking about this while I listened (I know, bad music lover, thinking while listening..) I start "feelin' it" on well-recorded music at about peaks to 70-75. I find myself playing peaks to there late at night, when I want to relax. Sometimes peaks to 70 is enough. Seems Klipsch is capable of makin' you 'feel it' at much lower volumes than other speakers I've used in the past.. The Fortes made it so I can do the 70db thing and still feel it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtaylor Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 F, if your equipment is in good shape maybe your room is having a negative effect on the musical reproduction. Speaker placement is important too. If you could describe your room and placement of speakers someone with more knowledge than I could maybe help you out here. Randy I thought as much . Although I can't help but shake the feeling that I may be doing something wrong. (Or at least my equipment is!) There seems to be no punch in live recordings. And I just can't seem to get an image of the music at all... Does this get better with tubes? -F ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 Hmmm... I was just listening to Clapton's "Unplugged" and I found that it had tons of punch, so I don't think that live recordings differ in that aspect from studio recordings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwm Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 ---------------- On 1/5/2005 6:22:59 PM JJKIZAK wrote: My idea is to have maybe about 8 k-horns each fitted with about 4 tweeters and 4 midrange, run them at mild volumes and then you have the Ka-Boom stuff because you are moving tons of air just like a live band does. I am of the belief that when a drummer strikes a cymbal you need about 10 or fifteen tweeters to give you the same feel as the live band. Figure it out: a cymbal is about 18" in diameter and you have 18 bad *** Inches vibrating the air instead of a 1" tweeter. You would need about 18 tweeters in a K-horn to duplicate the sound. JJK The acoustic output capability (acoustic watts) of a pair of K-horns in a good sized listening room would be more than adequate to reproduce the full instantaneous peak of a cymbal crash and drum peaks at the usual listening distance from the band/orchestra. You might as well speculate that you'd need locomotive sized speakers to reproduce the rumbling of an idling diesel locomotive to capture its sound and, believe me, you dont........ ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 I was just listening to Eric Clapton on Crossroads and the bass was overwhelmingly painfull and the high end just ok. The Bass drum and snare drums were fine but I could have used about 8 more tweeters. A tweeter can't come close to producing the huge volume and presense required for a cymbal. Get yourself some Ziljan cymbals and bang on them in your living room and then try to duplicate that with a K-horn. No-way. You can get good results with a direct tape recording of you banging on them but it's not good enough. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EDR Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 Not sure how loud I play my music but my dad lives a good five acers away and he could tell you. My wife went over to see mom and dad and she told me their walls shake. I love my lascala. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 My listening tastes are almost identical with my twin bro, Dr. Who. except that I have an 'office level' of perhaps 70-75 dB where I can comfortably carry on conversation and listen for 10-12 hours at a time. Good of him to mention the Fletcher-Munson curves. It would seem to make sense that those of us who listen critically would do so at a loudness point that is not painful, not damaging, and the ear's 'flattest' response. Good call Dr. Who! DrWho sez..."I find myself generally listening in the 85dB RMS range (peaks probably go as high as 95dB or so). Ironically, 85dB is the range at which our hearing is most linear according to the 'Fletcher-Munson equal-loudness contour curves'. For just one song per listening session I like to listen around 100-105dB. Any louder and my room overloads. My ears tire quickly when listening louder than 95dB so I don't often listen at these volumes." Yes, really LOUD just once in a while to 'blow the dust off'. Or I'll really crank it when working outside in the garage doing my 'air Joe Cocker' impersonation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 Right now I'm listening to Beethoven's 5th and it is probably ranging between 50 and 90 dbs depending on the passage. I agree with Paul that it definitely depends on the music. Bill T. summed it up really well the other day when describing how he knows when a tube system sounds right. He said you keep turning up the volume but you don't realize how loud it's playing until someone trys to talk to you and you can't hear them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 The K-77 doesn't do a good job with cymbals, but the K-67-DV does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleve Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 Are these decibel levels "A" or "C" weighted? It's hard to compare these figures without knowing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwm Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 "the K-67-DV" I'm not acquainted with this one.....who makes it? I cant find any info after doing a "Google"............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 That is what the RF-7 uses as a tweeter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 I can't put a number on it but Deans networks helped the high end a lot. When I say multiple tweeters and midrange I mean the same power but divided up evenly between the additional speakers to obtain more radiated area. This would I hope would improve the dynamic range and reduce distortion I remember recording some live stuff in the living room (Shure mics 50 to 15khz)and the results were breathtaking. There was an incredable improvement in transient response and presense, I guess not going through all of that super duper compression crap at the studios really helps. I wonder if anyone on this forum has tried multiple midrange and tweeters and what the results were. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 I've been mulling over your emails over the last few days, trying to come up with some good responses. It's difficult. Like Born2RockU (Craig), you are using an equalizer to combat poor room acoustics, and truthfully -- I have very little experience with that. My only experience with equalizers is from two decades ago, and back then they were gritty awful things. No matter what you thought you "fixed", it sounded "dirty". I don't think I should be basing any present opinion on experience and technology from 20 years ago! My first inclination is simply to respond by saying to yank the damn thing out of your system, but I know it's probably wrong to say that -- because every situation is different. The important thing here is how the new networks necessitated changing the EQ and tone control settings (something you really should share with the forum), because I believe it clearly demonstrates just how bad those aged cans are due to dielectric breakdown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoriated_Tiger Posted January 9, 2005 Author Share Posted January 9, 2005 ---------------- On 1/8/2005 10:37:36 PM Cleve wrote: Are these decibel levels "A" or "C" weighted? It's hard to compare these figures without knowing. ---------------- I use "C" weighting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 Dean: I would have said something more detailed earlier but I'm still fooling with many things.The new networks definitely moved things in a positive direction but my acoustics in the living room are not good and I am still learning different settings in the 7.1 mode which is the only mode that I do not like. The DE, DTS, and PLC-II are what I am using for just ordinary CD's. The equalizer settings are pumped up at 30 and 60 hz and also 16khz but I can't hear a thing (not the equipment but my actual hearing range) over 12.5khz. I will try some different setups in the next few weeks as time allows. One thing for sure, I will not put the old networks back in. Oh yes, the new networks are by DEAN. Also comtemplating a new DVD player that plays CD's. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 Most of us moving along in years probably have some limited hearing in that range. I'm 46, and can barely hear a 15Khz from a test CD at 80db -- after that, nothing at all. Most of us are aware to use the C weighting for music, unless using our hammerdrills -- at which point we turn up the music! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 Look to your source equipment or the condition pf your tweeters if cymbals are not realistic. Also, if your acoustic issues are that obious, that would be the very first place to address problems with realism. Multi-tweeter arrays would only exacerbate the problem. And get rid of the receiver. Your speakers deserve better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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