Guest Anonymous Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 ---------------- On 1/17/2005 1:39:24 PM Dylanl wrote: Dragon, you sure know how to lengthen a thread. Since I have been on this forum I have never seen explainations that long. I started to fall asleep reading the 1st one. 2nd one ZZZZZZ! Huh, what was that I was reading?? 3rd Good night - ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ---------------- hahaha, this is the most intensity i have sen here in months Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Dragon, You are good at name dropping, but not so good at doing the math. I therefore doubt that you have much real knowledge of physics. Paul Klipsch demonstrated, as have many others, that the voice coil in the speaker does most of the damping, not the amplifier. Anyone that states amplfier damping factor is important is either ignorant or selling snake oil. Paul Klipsch had a little yellow button for folks like you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Well this should be interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott0527 Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Nevermind, wrong thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott0527 Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtaylor Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 I for one think this is interesting. Not being an able bodied INJUNEER doesn't stop me from learning. Or maybe it does. Still good stuff even if dragonfyr has come off a little brusque. Sorry dragon dude, you did start off heavy. LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE! Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 ---------------- On 1/17/2005 2:52:38 PM MrMcGoo wrote: Dragon, You are good at name dropping, but not so good at doing the math. I therefore doubt that you have much real knowledge of physics. Paul Klipsch demonstrated, as have many others, that the voice coil in the speaker does most of the damping, not the amplifier. Anyone that states amplfier damping factor is important is either ignorant or selling snake oil. Paul Klipsch had a little yellow button for folks like you. ---------------- Where does one begin with such a rocket scientist? So rocket scientist, what provides the input for the transducer? Or is your 'cold fusion reactor' self powered without the need from an amplifier? What damps the driver in a bass reflex cabinet when it is at its free air resonance? Hmmmm? Do the math Mr. Wizard! Name drop? HAHAHA! No, I have just had the pleasure of knowing the folks. Funny, I didn't see you at any of the Loudspeaker Design Seminars nor at any of the Syn-Aud-Con functions over the years! And since I have decided to bail from this sorry site, I will be glad to put my educational experience and my resume up against you or anyone else on the site! So, just what insight have you contributed, aside from thinking that a tranducer damps itself? I guess it also drives itself, whenever it can think of a song to hum to itself too! Not to confuse you more, but what provides the modulated signal that drives the speaker causing the magnetic field to vary, and thus cause the voice coil to move within the magnetic field? DO THE MATH WHIZ KID! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Well gramos, You are right as always. And when did I say solid state was better than tube amplification? It is funny as I currently run several modified Audio Research amps and preamps as well as Crown MA-24x6s with modified time alignment EQ PIP cards, Krell and Pass Lab amplifiers as well as Klipsch, Martin Logans, Velodyne HGS18mk2s and DD18s and SVS Ultras, as well as FAR too many DIY units, including a few THX certified subs and satellites. And I have either owned or used more models then even I can begin to recall! How many of the speakers that you have designed are in use in major studios? Hmm? And I have been involved in the design of far too many systems ranging from large sound reinforcement rigs to too many studios and been involved in the acoustical analysis and alignment of far too many large and small rooms and studios. And yes, and among my other degrees, I do have BA & MS degrees in physics with concentrations in electro-acoustics and quantum electrodynamics(and far too much directed R&D work in resonance ionization spectroscopy...) since my skill sets were also questioned earlier by one of the cadre who didnt know that gold has more resistance than copper! I am sorry if you are offended that I feel that there is a valid and legitimate use for physics and the analytical tools that offer valuable insight and assistance into the function and design of systems. The use of such technology to assist in the understanding and to aid in implementing desired goals does not intimidate me, and I enjoy its use and exploring and discussing the ramifications of the insight it provides. And no, it is not a substitute for the actual experience! It is a valuable tool! And while you may find such knowledge an hindrance, my feelings never really contributed to designing a system either! Of course there was that time I was a little down. ;-) You have taken exception with me ever since I had the audacity to point out that your feeling that copper has a higher resistance than gold was incorrect. The religion of pure subjectivity to the exclusion of any technical understanding of the technology is your right, just as I have a right to my belief in its legitimate use as a tool to compliment the understanding of systems. I mistakenly assumed that there was room for both camps. And every time I attempted to qualify or present something that I thought might add additional insight or understanding to an issue for those who might be interested, I have heard little but the Luddite response of "don't confuse the subject with that weird acoustical physics stuff." You are right. While there are many here who I think would enjoy sharing ideas and exploring topics and broadening their horizons with regards to a fascinating field. But there are also far too many for whom this is simply a religious cult where free thinking is to be feared and shunned. While I will NOT pretend to know all, I have not told anyone that they know nothing about all things audio (simply because they bought a name brand piece of gear) as others who haven't a clue about what I was speaking about have. Nor did I expect to encounter a heated debate by yourself and others over the relative resistivity of copper and gold! Only to be told that the reference texts were wrong as well! Oh to be SO enlightened. I have however spent a good deal of time studying the works of Dick Heyser and attending far too many seminars and classes with the likes of teachers and mentors such as Don Keele, Don Davis, Gene Patronis and many others and having the pleasure to work with far more in sharing insights and learning much from them and others. And I must admit to being rather amazed that discussing the very technology that they have developed and championed for so long would be received with such animosity in the house that Paul built!. I have never attacked anyone who did not understand said technology. But I must admit a bit of surprise at the amount of personal attacks and derision regarding the simple mention of technology that the people who you mention so often developed and utilized! There is an irony here, but I am sure it will be lost this group of individuals! The techniques that were employed by Paul Klipsch (and yes, which I had the personal pleasure to discuss and debate back in the 70's when I was still the kid working with Jethro Tull and worrying about such arcane topics as the effects of material resonance in the aluminum versus fiberglass CD horn lenses being introduced at the time), and subsequently learning from so many other legendary teachers who were so kind to share their knowledge and insight. Don't worry, I have decided that this forum is not a place to share and learn about the technology, as it seems, for the most part, to be oriented toward a mutual admiration society based on emotion, and where folks enjoy the debate as a form of exploring an idea, even if it is in the role of devils advocate for the purpose of the debate, but who might take a position differing from the current cult group think are shunned and derided. Yes, ultimately the experience is in the listening. But the systems are not built by ears nor by emotional feelings. The tools employed are in the realm of physics, and I am sorry that so many seem so terribly intimidated by this. This forum had the opportunity to actually develop and post various proposed solutions to problems, but after a how many years it seems that the site wallows in (as I was warned) weekly emotional and religious tirades over cables and the emotional tube versus solid state debate. While I find the real debate of the various pros and cons of each, I guess I don't reduce the world to such simplistic positions as which is right or wrong. I guess my world view is just alittle more complex than that. There are times when each approach may have advantages and disadvantages. But that is just a little to complex for some to fathom, in a world or right and wrong. {But then I am not the one who insisted upon arguing resistance and conduction are the SAME thing (for those still confused, they are the inverse of each other!) nor was I the one to maintain that gold is a better conductor than copper in an absolute sense!} There used to be quite a stimulating group of users associated with the Klipsch legacy, but it is a shame when so many of the current supporters eschew the very technology that Klipsch pioneers such as Paul and Don Keele both advocated, pioneered and actively promoted. You're right. I certainly don't want to confuse you nor upset you by mentioning technologies that should be commonly understood (at least they were with Paul and Don and others within the Klipsch organization!) Heck, it was always great to see the folks (and Klipsch always had their representatives there!) who were around for the first, second, and subsequent Loudspeaker Design Seminars and to see the attendance grow from a handful to ~100 to the 'conflagration' it has become. But discussions regarding such topics and insights, and the sharing of the various relative merits regarding such topics, seems to not be an appropriate topic in this forum judging from the repeated derision encountered. And it is truly ironic in a forum that 'wears' the name of someone who as much as anyone I ever met, encouraged and promoted such discourse! It is a shame to see it digress to such an emotional cult where divergent ideas and the explorations of divergent tangents are actively derided. So you win. I mistakenly thought that this could be an enjoyable forum populated with folks who would welcome discussions and explorations of topics acoustic. And that maybe one or two had not skipped or fallen asleep in their physics class. So, by all means go back to your weekly argument over cables, and your quasi-religious Luddism regarding all things tube, and the all too common belief that gold is a better conductor than copper! (I honestly should have read the writing on the wall when this was the first debate I encountered!) And by all means, DON'T let that technology stuff confuse you any more. I would have suggested attending a Synergetic Audio Conference workshop for those who wanted to learn more about the fascinating discipline, but you wouldn't want to be confused by that technical stuff (burn the witch!), as they do more then simply sit and listen and get in touch with their warm fuzzy feelings about technology. Now, if they could only make transducers that were warm and fuzzy! I'm outa here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtaylor Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Hello! Dragonfyr don't be so hasty. Mayhaps there is more than appears at the surface here. I truly enjoy your thoughts and insight. Not that I pretend to understand them, hence the injuneer in my last post. That was in jest and not making fun of you, hell, I can't keep up with your ideas, yet. You do, in my modest opinion need to relax. Yes, we are old, fat, and eating our soup in our recliners. Tubes glowing, cat in our lap, dog farting at our feet. What could be better? There is plenty of room for everyone here. If you take a little time I'm sure you'll see that we're not all that bad. This is not an engineering site but a group of people who are into music and mostly music played with Klipsch speakers. If you want to discuss your ideas with us try to be a little easier on the uneducated ones. (ME) Altho there are some here that are educated in the fields you speak of. Hope to see you around here. This statement is mine and mine only, get off it you buggers. Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 well on that note..... i acutally think you should stick around, i was really starting to warm up to your style of communicating your ideas (no joke) i feel that you have some flavor to add, but you need to treat us the way you want to be treated, you treat us with respect and you will get that back in return. There is just a large adjustment period around here. There is a lot of humor on this site and thats one thing that makes this so much better. The fact that we can joke about almost anything. (including people who have pHD's and their distaste towards expensive cables). Well, see-ya later! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 UMMmmmmm.. before you leave... I'm curious to learn. So why not teach me something, rather than go on ad nausiem about a mistake made re the resistive properties of an element? I do believe you brought that up several times in most of your replies. Tell me who these people are, and what they have done, and why I should seek out their information, instead of implying you are superior to the rest of us since you rub elbows with someone I've never heard of. Sorry, but I don't run in the "Forward thinking electronic and loudspeaker design and development" crowd, I just want a home stereo that sounds good to me, and better than any one else I know owns. I believe the best teacher leads by example, not by domineering. Since you arrived here, you've been very brash, condecending, almost "stuck-up". Why not take a step back, and rather than illustrating just how ignorant we all are, do some simple, laymans explainations of what we're missing. If that's possible, I realize with your education it may be tough to stoop to the level of the "regular guy". I wish you'd try. I truly do feel that you have information that could be of benefit to many of us, but the way you present yourself, and your ideas, puts off many people and results in nothing constructive ever coming from it. Lighten up, dude!! Give me half a reason to listen to you, other than the fact you can sling big words, phrases and names, and I'd be more than happy to listen. If you can't try and convey the information you have gained in your travels through the world of audio without trying, albeit possible unintentionally, to make yourself seem superior to us heathens, then off with you. I want to learn, but not from someone pompas and arrogant. Bring it down a notch or two, like I'm sure the names you referanced have. I doubt you would speak so highly of them if they always had the attitude you seem to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Dragnfyr You have mail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Dragnfyr You have mail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylanl Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 I think he is gone forever. Heck, I was not trying to run him out, just trying to tone Dragon breath down a notch. I do not claim to be smart, but the things I do know that others do not I do not hold over others heads like a hammer. If you truly want to help people here put it in a plain language that all can understand. I have seen this personality type before, as long as they are the authority everything is OK but a little question or controversy and they will have none of it. I like this forum because things do get questioned and everything said is not taken as fact. Let me ask you this: If everyone is jumping off a bridge do you jump also or dare to ask "how high is it"? I like the "how high" mentality that the people have here. Sadly in all his wisdom and lengthy posts the dragon has yet to see that side of the question. As far as I am concerned then you need JUMP - JUMP that is to another forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 For the benefit of Dragon if he's still here. This address leads to a published article by Paul Klipsch that examines damping factor: http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=51455&forumID=66&catID=19&search=1&searchstring=&sessionID={F3E08E89-ACD0-41E1-8F57-97A500935709} Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 He sure typed a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 well look at it this way, you have almost 9000 posts with little to moderate typing, he had few posts but extreme amounts i think that if it was divided out i think that you may have him beat but then again if you look at it word per capita i think he may have you beat i guess it all depends on the way you look at it maybe an audiophile could offer some insight as to this crazy world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 ---------------- On 1/16/2005 9:46:52 AM Colin wrote: How does one judge an amplifier, or any other component from its specs? ---------------- Great question, Colin, with a simple answer. You can't. In the past, I've spent countless hours comparing specs with amplifiers that have caught my eye in glossy Hi-Fi mags. And I reluctantly admit that I have even purchased amplifiers based on my perusal of specs without listening! On delivery, without fail, I have been disappointed with the ultimate performance of these purchases. They have all worked in so far as they've made noises - some have made some reasonably pleasant noises. But nothing special. In the past few years I have come to the realisation that specs have little or no bearing on how an amplifier might sound. Armed with the advantage of a brother who works in the Hi-Fi business, I have listened extensively to some fairly ordinary amplifiers with rather ordinary specs and power outputs, to be rewarded with a sound that has in many cases, blown me away. How can such an ordinary looking, poorly spec'd and low powered amplifier like the Sugden A21a, deliver such a sweet and utterly exquisite sound? There's a lot more to amplifier design than merely stuffing the biggest transformers, heatsinks, capacitors, 'name' components and other stuff into fancy boxes. Like the makers of fine musical instruments working with bits of wood and string, great amplifier designers know how to extract that magic out of an apparently motley collection of electronic components. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 19, 2005 Author Share Posted January 19, 2005 dragon flying man - hell no, don't go! well I too do not understand much of what people claim, and I DO find that many people walk around spouting conventional wisdom as truth, the only thing is patiently and quietly (and briefly!) relate our actual experiences Remember, there is no democracy without dissent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 I gave up on specs a long time ago. Many specification measurement standards were developed decades ago. Some are still valid, others are not. Take something that should be relatively simple like noise, typically measured at 1KHz. Theres a reason for this. The human ear is generally most sensitive around this frequency. In the old days (vacuum tubes) it made sense to take the noise measurement here. When SS came along things changed. The SS amps generally specd out & tested very well with very low noise levels (compared to their tube counterparts) at this frequency. As it turns out, the amount of broadband noise produced by the SS amps is typically much greater than that of most tube amps. Theres much more high frequency noise. Case in point: My Crown SS amps which I use for more general everyday use have measured noise levels at -115dB below the signal. My Luxman tube amps measure -98dB. Ill give you one guess which one has less audible noise. When the Luxmans are turned all the way up (sources disconnected) you must put your ear right up against the grill cloth of the mid/high frequency horns in order to hear anything, and its still almost non-existent, a foot or more away you no longer hear it at all. Do the same with the Crowns which measure 17dB better and you can clearly hear the hiss anywhere in the room. And so it goes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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