Short Article on Hearing Loss

[WMcD]

Just below is a short article from the New York Times regarding hearing loss.

The most remarkable part, to me, is that dangerous levels do exist in clubs and bars. I find some of these places to be offensively loud. The article shows it is not just "me".

It seems they're dangerously loud too.

Gil

[WMcD]

I'll have to start carrying around the RS SPL meter.

Gil

NYT dB and Hearing.pdf

[Randy Taylor]

I'am I missing something here, where is it ?

[Randy Taylor]

I found it, sorry. What I always wonder about are the young people that go down the road with music so loud that you can hear it when you stop at a light three cars away and they have there windows up, there has to be some damage to there ears going on. I mean I like to play music loud sometimes put that is just crazy to play it that loud.

[Tom Mobley]

Gil, my 7 yr old son attends a very active and modern Sunday School class. I went in there early one day to pick him up. The music was so loud I couldn't believe it, and I have hearing loss from years of open exhaust race cars. They have a live band in there. I asked the leader about it, he didn't seem too concerned. THe next week I took my RS meter in there, there were going over 110 continuously. I showed it to him, it was a classic combination of jaw drop and going pale. I asked him if he thought that was enough to damage kids sensitive hearing. Even paler. There were adjustments. The next week they had a meter at the sound board. Peaks under 100, mostly around 90.

[colterphoto1]

GOOD MAN Tom Mobley, yes, children's hearing is more sensitive than ours, therefore more prone to damage. And heaven help us if they get used to hearing 100dB. What will the next generation of car stereo bring?

You done good!

Michael

[IB Slammin]

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On 3/4/2005 5:42:00 PM Randy Taylor wrote:

I found it, sorry. What I always wonder about are the young people that go down the road with music so loud that you can hear it when you stop at a light three cars away and they have there windows up, there has to be some damage to there ears going on. I mean I like to play music loud sometimes put that is just crazy to play it that loud.

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Randy,

I don't know what this younger generation is coming to.

I have heard tell of an old guy (55) in Northwest AR. who drives an extended cab pickup with four Heresys cargo strapped to the jump seats. Power amps are under the seats. Love to pull up next to the one-note kids at stop lights.

[IB Slammin]

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On 3/4/2005 7:37:50 PM colterphoto1 wrote:

GOOD MAN Tom Mobley, yes, children's hearing is more sensitive than ours, therefore more prone to damage. And heaven help us if they get used to hearing 100dB. What will the next generation of car stereo bring?

You done good!

Michael

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....."What will the next generation" ......Well Michael, my kids listen to the sounds of PWK.

Edit: Maybe like this: I would rather die in a nice sport car at 150mph, than be killed by some PMS soccer-mom, in a mini-van, trying to beat me to a parking space at Wal-Mart.

Regards,

Terry

[WMcD]

It looks like OSHA is pretty good at having employers issue ear plugs for workers. People gripe but OSHA is correct. It may even be a macho thing for workers when they mistakenly believe that the little sensors in their ears are supermen. Real men don't wear earplugs. We're tough.

The problem is that we run into the same levels in non-work setting and people are not aware of the potential for cumulative damage. It is part of the culture.

BTW, as a very young kid I'd ride the NYC subways. The screeching of the wheels was almost painful. Chalk that up to the sensitivity of youth.

In high school the dances had very loud bands in the gym. Loud makes up for lack of talent. You couldn't even talk to a girl over the din and had to write notes. In later years the Fathers and Brothers put in a system to cut off power to on-stage a.c. outlets (the band's) when the SPL got too high. It was a good thing and I wish they'd done it earlier.

At college, again with the loud bands.

Now, admittedly older, I find loud bars offensive too. One in particular is the Cactus Club just a few blocks south of the office on Wells. The music is loud, everyone tries to shout over it. What speakers are on the walls? Heresy! Really.

In a disco dance club, years ago, I asked the manager to turn down the sound. He said no. If he turned it down, no one would dance. This may have meant, if they don't dance, they don't meet anyone, and if they don't hook up, they don't come back to the bar.

My conclusion is that this is a univeral problem in our culture. People know better than to look at the sun and burn out their retina. Yet they ignore high SPL.

I like good music and cranking it a bit. But we encounter situations where our hearing is being murdered.

Gil

[Marvel]

Gil,

My older brother (age 58) worked on radar while in the USAF. He have a huge hearing loss due to the noise of the antenna rotation mechanism.

I played guitar for a brother/sister act that once opened for Tom Paxton at the Quiet Night (Knight sp?) on Wells. Man, that does bring back memories. Long time ago.

Marvel

[DrWho]

I think the problem is that louder does indeed sound better...it sounds bigger, fuller, more realistic, etc etc. When listening to a mid-fi system (not high end, but not crappy either), the louder is better effect is even greater.

Solution to the problem? get rid of crappy mid-fi systems. Ok, I know that's not feasible so the only solution is to get the operators behind mid-fi systems to understand the limitations of the system. When first learning how to mix, all you think about is trying to make it sound as good as possible. It takes a good degree of maturity to know when the limitations of the system are reached and not try to push it beyond that (even though there are a few times you might be able to improve it). The downside is that level of maturity isn't obtained until you've mixed on a better system.

I think I'm going a bit off tangent here, but I think the concept is important. When listening to music, we're our own mixers with very few controls...the volume, maybe a few tone controls and then our wallets to purchase the best sounding system. We always want to improve the sound and when we do, I think sometimes we ignore the limitations of our system and we end up relying on the louder sounds better effect to "dial things in." The correct solution is to either put up with the limitations of the system or buy a better system.

I don't think either is going to happen anytime soon (until we arrive at some new method of reproducing sound).

[jheis]

I've been aware of about a 20% hearing loss in my right ear for about 15 years, probably from hunting and ***** shooting when I was a teenager - doesn't seem to be progressive or typically age related (I haven't lost the high frequencies, it looks more like a hammock in the mid range). I told my Doc that I was being a good boy and wearing Peltor hearing protectors when I mow the lawn. He said, "you should wear hearing protection when you VACUUM." I guess that leaves out tubes for me.

James

[DrWho]

a while back i was shown a study where most males have more hearing loss in their left ear than in their right one. they found two correlations: driving with the window down and listening to music in the car. It was generally worse when both were true of the test subject.

there was another study that i read where it talked about the dangers of white noise (like your computer fan). Constant exposure to white noise, even at levels like 50dB, can also cause permanent hearing damage. I forget the rationale they proposed for the results. I'll see if I can find the articles since I'm sure y'all won't wanna take my word for it.

[Audible Nectar]

Clubs and bars are certainly rough places on the ears to hear music.......normally MUCH louder than necessary, and usually a health hazard, too.

I have attended concerts where ear plugs were necessary.....like AC/DC in the second row. When the opening band hit the stage, I hit the first aid room and asked the medics for cotton balls. It took a bit of coaxing, but the medics finally gave us a handful - and we were quite popular folks back in the second row, as everyone else's ears were hurting too.

I discussed this subject with String Cheese Incident's soundman, and was told that they typically dial in the sound at about 88-92 db depending on local noise ordinances (peaks higher, of course). I find that SCI's volume is quite proper - loud enough to sound good, not too loud as to cause discomfort.

The "cleanliness" factor matters too. If what you are listening to isn't clean sounding, your ears will hurt sooner as the volume increases. I saw KISS 12th row a few years back, and wondered about how they would sound. Surprisingly, as loud as they were, they were also very good sounding.....and as a result, not painful to the ears.

This makes me wonder if there is a relationship to hearing loss in listeners from systems that exhibit fatigue in the listener. Most of us are familiar with a phenomenon of fatigue, where a system "tires" the listener of hearing the system from less than clean electronics or sources. Also, most of us are familiar with a very good sound system that begs the listener to turn it up some, and allows the listeners ears to listen for hours without fatigue. I would be curious if a relationship exists between hearing loss in audio enthusiasts and fatiguing systems owned by those listeners. I have often considered that "fatigue" is, in part, the human body's way of saying "my ears are tired of listening to this, and it's hurting them."

[minn_male42]

what?....

speak up!

i can't quite hear you....

[homemade]

I'm going to a substate bastketball game this evening in a new gym that has no insulation on the roof and sides. Loudest gym I've been in. I'll take my RS meter with me to measure it. Another local school has an extremely loud pep band. I've never heard such a loud pep band. Too loud for my tastes and I like my music fairly loud with khorn replicas. You have to shout to talk to someone next to you. I much prefer some lows in bass such as a bass guitar to the louder higher notes. My wife thought my khorns were loud! You need a speaker like this to put out the same level of loudness as live!

[J.4knee]

This is kind of remotely related to this but it hit home when I thought about it. About 10 years ago I went with my brother to get his Klipsch speakers. We went to the only Klipsch dealer in the area. After about an hour of perusing the store he decided he wanted the KG 5.2's. We found a sales rep that let us demo them for about 30 - 45 minutes and while we were talking I noticed he had a set of hearing aides in that were roughly the size of an MC 275 in each ear. During this discussion he disclosed his main listening room had a Klipschorn in each corner (4 of them) powered by crown amps and then he pulled those monstrosities out of each ear and smiled and said see living proof! He estimated his routine listening SPL was about 100+ db. My work often sends me into shipyards and the sound pressure there is tremendous with deck grinders and deck crawler blasting everywhere. It is made worse given that the work I do is inside a steel hulled ship with these things grinding away above and around me. So yeah I always grab a couple set of those little spongy earplugs. IMO the OSHA requirements for hearing protection although inconvenient are a good thing. I have go to back into a shipyard next week I think I may take my SPL meter just to see what the noise level run at on average. Good article thanks Gil.

[Colin]

REGULARLY experience are the key words, not intermitant -

methinks you are getting old!

although I do know of studies showing that REALLLy loud noise Like 150dB or more) can cause lasting ear damage ....

[Guest Anonymous]

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On 3/4/2005 5:16:36 PM William F. Gil McDermott wrote:

Just below is a short article from the New York Times regarding hearing loss.

The most remarkable part, to me, is that dangerous levels do exist in clubs and bars. I find some of these places to be offensively loud. The article shows it is not just "me".

It seems they're dangerously loud too.

Gil

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well i go to clubs quite frequently when i am not traveling and i personally do not find that bad, but this is my theory and that is when you do not like the sound of something ie if you hate techno music it will seem louder than it really is.... well i know i do that mentally like if i can't stand the sound of someone's voice and i just can't tune it out, it seems louder to em than it is to others.... i'm not sure if that makes sense but i find that true to me, like if there is a great song and you just have to turn it up you don't realize how loud it is until the next song comes on and you don't really like it

[jheis]

Colin:

First, ONE time exposure is sufficient to cause permanent hearing loss.

Second, we are all getting older and our sense of hearing does not improve with age.

Third, I recently read that the "Who" still hold the all-time record for a live concert at (I believe) 120db. Townsend is deaf in one ear and can't hear out of the other.

I'm very protective of the hearing I have left and would urge others to do the same. It's hard to enjoy music if you can't hear it.

James