Into the deep with headphones

[Erik Mandaville]

I need/want a subwoofer!

As I've been doing each evening, I've just been listening to the Moth/KR2A3 combination with headphones, and am just astonished with the Sennheiser's bass response. I was listening to a Narada CD of harp music, and was particularly struck by one track with bass response so low down -- that sort of very low, earthy rumble that's almost more of a sensation than a musical note -- that I've never heard before on our main system. It may have been present, but just not at a level that made it nearly so much an integral part and foundation of the music. With phones, it was really neat to hear, and makes me think even more that there may be information on CDs that we are not getting nearly enough of. This isn't to say that the Klipschorns are not good bass performers. They are. It's that I have heard some very subterranian sounding stuff recently with the Sennheisers that just does not come through nearly as much as I now know I would like it to.

Erik

[Born2RockU]

The sub is what adds the dynamics to the foundation of music, my brotha !

[stan krajewski]

Which Sennheisers Eric?

[Parrot]

Do you still have your Klipschorns away from the corners? I can't remember for sure but I think somewhere I heard or read that you'll get better bass from Klipschorns if they are in corners. Now don't quote me on this, I may be thinking of Magnepans.

[Piranha]

Maggies thump! NOT

[codhead]

Erik,

I'll agree that the Moth makes one heck of a nice headphone amp. I use Sennheiser 650's and AVVT's. As much as I like my Heresys, the phones make for some great late night listening.

[Erik Mandaville]

Hi, Paul:

"Do you still have your Klipschorns away from the corners? I can't remember for sure but I think somewhere I heard or read that you'll get better bass from Klipschorns if they are in corners."

Yes. I have learned from reading many important hi fi audio-related magazines that we should pull our speakers far out into the listening room. When you do that, the sound from doing that is much better than how the sound sounds when you do not do that. The industry is known for promoting this fact, and things like soundstage and images sound better two. I have used my measuring tape, and so I know that the bass response is lower two.

Erik

[Erik Mandaville]

Cod:

"I'll agree that the Moth makes one heck of a nice headphone amp. I use Sennheiser 650's and AVVT's."

You have precisely the same setup as I. I found another pair of AVVTs for a reasonable price and bought them. They are a great tube for the Moth, and must admit the aesthetic aspect goes with it very well, too. Actually, your amp is a bit different from the generation I built -- and in fact may be better in a couple of different ways. I almost bought the one you now have, by the way! I decided I would rather put it together myself, and so purchased all the parts, chassis, and schematic from Craig U.

You asked about a follow up on our surround system. I have recently really been impressed with the Teac 3-channel digital amp, and had been using it as the front stage (L/C/R) amp for the Klipschorns and our borrowed La Scala center speaker. I was then using my Horus monoblocks as the side channel amps for our Lowther horns, but found I could not lower the gain enough on the Lexicon, using an SPL meter, to match the output (at the listening position) with the front and rear channels. That was kind of a strange discovery, really. The Lowthers are almost brutally revealing, and also don't use a crossover (what a blessing!)which may be making some small contribution to the problem. So, I tried using the Teac just for the center and sides, where I would be able to adjust the gain associated with the Lowther horns with the potentiometers on the back of the Teac. I have been meaning to mention this, but the Teac with the Lowthers is a really great combination. Lowthers are even more sensitive to PSU artifacts and noise than the Klipschorns (at least in my experience), and they sound wonderful with the Teac digital amp. I'm using the Horus for the left and right front channels, and Welborne Moondogs for the Heresi (pronounced 'Hair-a-sigh'), which is the true plural form of 'Heresy' as it was used during the Crusades (yes, I'm making this up).

Is this what you were curious about, Cod?

Erik

[Erik Mandaville]

Paul:

I was answering your question with a similar measure of -- whatever you want to call it.

The answer again is yes. I have the speakers in the corners, since I'm pretty sure you're right about their corner placement -- but maybe I'm thinking of Difinitive Technology or Martin Logan. They just fit our listening space better that way, although I admit it's not ideal -- I'm doing the best we can with the space we have. The speakers are only toed outward slightly away from the wall, and I have come up with a tweak that works well for angling the tophat with the tweeter and squawker slightly more downward toward the listening position. This does not involve tilting the entire cabinet. I cut a tennis ball in half, loosened the screws that hold the top section onto the bass bin, and put the tennis ball half under the rear triangle, between it and the bottom section. The wing nuts were tightened down again, gently squeezing the tennis ball into position, and the tilt is perfect in relation to the listening position.

I did try the Khorns snug in the corners of our 21' wall, and they worked well there, but we had to listen with our futon sofa right up against the opposite wall. Things sounded strange that way, and the speakers seemed to overload the room in terms of bass response. This is a suspended floor, by the way, upstairs. The overall sound is better with them on the shorter wall, angled slightly outward and downward.

I'm planning a DIY subwoofer and amp project (hopefully if things work out)this summer, and will augment the low-end with that. For us I think it will work well; for those who are able to seal the speakers snugly into corners, a sub probably isn't needed -- but might be kind of fun anyway.

Erik

[codhead]

Erik,

I'm really glad you decided not to go for that Moth before I did... it's still the best deal I've received on a piece of audio gear.

I continue to look at the "digital" amps. Will probably just pick up a cheap one for the time being. I'm not hung up on the quality of the enclosure, or tube vs. SS. If it sounds good, it is good - especially at these prices.

Did you build some kind of box to get a bridged center channel? Thought I remembered you posting something along these lines, but sure can't seem to find it now. Think it was a Klipsch design from a long time ago.

[Erik Mandaville]

Cod:

"I'm really glad you decided not to go for that Moth before I did... it's still the best deal I've received on a piece of audio gear."

I can see that, especially for an amplifier of its quality and design. Yours uses toroidal transformers, and dual PS filter chokes, which didn't come with the parts I bought. I also redesigned part of the power supply, which has resulted in slightly lower 120 cycle residual noise. Regulated DC on the 2A3 filaments is also kind of unique for this type of amplifier, although I know that some prefer the 'sound' of AC (I don't here a difference).

I agree with what you say about the chassis and parts issue, too. As someone who appreciates good design and craftsmanship, I still think and really enjoy seeing examples of how designers integrate functional circuits and aesthetics; and for me the Moth has been an amp I've admired in that respect for a long time.

I don't know if I have mentioned this, but this ultra-quiet and extremely well-performing Teac just does such a great job without drawing attention to itself in a visual sense. It's just a simple gray box with a blue pilot light.

You asked about the center channel, which was discussed some months ago. In brief: I build PWK's minobox (so he's to blame, not me!), and used another amplifier I had (Moondog, I think)as the center channel amplifier. Actually, I may have been using the Moth and one of the Horus amps. Doesn't matter. The results of that led to auditioning a Lexicon digital processer, which was generously loaned to us by Shawn Fogg. So, a long story made shorter, the use of 3 speakers evolved into 7; and our listening room is now the size of a concert hall or cathedral. Honestly, the illusion of listening to real live music -- whatever the genre -- is uncanny. The Lexicon is really a very talented and extremely subtle component, because we still have very much of a front stage, yet just with the addition of subtle ambient effects and cues from the sides and rears that create such an appealing impression or sensation of air and acoustic space. It's really pretty cool, but navigating with the Lexicon took some practice. I've been terrible about reading directions all my life, but this demanded some research. It's pretty intuitive once one gets used to it. It's also really fun, which I don't mind saying is the most important thing to me. Despite the use of the Teac, I still have the filaments of 15-20 tubes glowing at the same time. The Heresy rear channel is wonderful, and they are driven by my faithful Moondogs.

So. I've got to go get a step-up transformer connected to an amp I'm working on! (hey, J & T!)

Erik

[dubai2000]

Erik,

better get the sub ready at the beginning of summer as you'll spend quite some time going through your collection of CDs .

Seriously, I know a some people here do not think favourably of adding a sub (especially non-horn loaded) to Khorns but in MY room this certainly added realism to a lot of big orchestral recordings, but even with small scale music you might notice an increased (meaning more three-dimensional) soundstage. So to MY ears a properly aligned sub is really more than 'just' added low bass notes.

Wolfram

[dodger]

----------------

On 5/21/2005 8:05:50 AM dubai2000 wrote:

Erik,

better get the sub ready at the beginning of summer as you'll spend quite some time going through your collection of CDs

.

Seriously, I know a some people here do not think favourably of adding a sub (especially non-horn loaded) to Khorns but in MY room this certainly added realism to a lot of big orchestral recordings, but even with small scale music you might notice an increased (meaning more three-dimensional) soundstage. So to MY ears a properly aligned sub is really more than 'just' added low bass notes.

Wolfram

----------------

When I came to know Wolfram, I came to know a person that was not geared to one "sound." He knows the musical range.

Something that more should learn.

I used to fall asleep watching TV. That I learned was a waste.

I have a Technics Class A that I rotate Sennheiser HD 270s, Koss Pro 4AAs and Koss Pro4AATs through.

With each set of headphones I find something unique. The Koss seem more open, the Sennheisers more definition.

I would love to move up the Sennheiser chain, but I'm still making my Doctor's car payments .

I have always dreamt in color, now the dreams are even more life like.

Should anyone have a better set of Sennheisers in great shape gathering dust, please contact me.

Win

[sfogg]

Win,

The better Senns are great headphones no doubt. Certainly can't go wrong with anything from the 580s and up. I would love a pair of them myself sometime.

You might also look into Entoymotic ER-4S headphones. These fit in your ear and block out around 20dB of outside noise to increase the resolution of what you are listening to. If I really want to hear what is on a recording or for comparisons I tend to use these. Not everyone is comfortable wearing them though.

Also the Koss ESP-950 electrostatic headphones are very very nice too. Every once in awhile they come up used but most people that have them keep them. They have a lifetime warranty as well which is nice.

For bang for the buck headphones are champs.

Erik,

For subs... lots of options!

Shawn

[Parrot]

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On 3/22/2005 9:17:16 PM Erik Mandaville wrote:

I was listening to a Narada CD of harp music, and was particularly struck by one track with bass response so low down -- that sort of very low, earthy rumble that's almost more of a sensation than a musical note -- that I've never heard before on our main system.

----------------

Yessir, when I want to really rock the joint, I reach for harp music. This thread has sure gone all over the place: Flea amps, fake surround, headphones, no-bass Klipschorns. That's all part of why reading the forum is better than watching TV.

[dubai2000]

Win,

thanks for the nice words - too bad I am not into headphones anymore, otherwise I'd certainly get a parcel ready.

Wolfram

[Erik Mandaville]

Shawn: I think you're right -- lots of options for subwoofers! A DIY project seems like it would be fun, and as you said, I would just need an amplifier sans crossover. I need to be careful not to overdue things, but it would be fun. I haven't built speakers in several years, but have plans in both books and back issues of Speaker Builder that look like they would be good.

Win: Absolutely! Wolfram has always been very open-minded about all of this. He, as well as a few others, have encouraged me to try a subwoofer for a couple of years. Until I heard Craig Born2RockU's system last year, I didn't realize what I have been missing. He came over to our house when we started on the variable L-pad/squawker project, and immediately noted (very politely, I should add...)that we were missing some fundamental LF information.

Wolfram: I know what you're saying and agree, because I have had the opportunity to hear the difference both with and without 'subwooferication' (patent pending!).

Paul: "Yessir, when I want to really rock the joint, I reach for harp music. This thread has sure gone all over the place: Flea amps, fake surround, headphones, no-bass Klipschorns. That's all part of why reading the forum is better than watching TV.:

Thanks for taking the time to read what I wrote -- I appreciate that, and am glad it's pulled you away from the TV. More importantly, you have buttressed everything I have been mentioning about surround sound, especially concerning the fact that it's fake! However, unless you have various groups of musicians hanging out in your yard while they wait for their turn to play for you, I would like to submit the possibility that two channel stereo is also, in your words, 'fake.' Of course it is! The whole thing is a fake, a sham, and an illusion! But wait! I have just noticed in your signature line that you seem to have more than just a stereo pair of loudspeakers? How do you use the others, and how do they fit into the grand scheme of things at your house?

Ah yes...'flea power amplification syndrome' (FPAS) Again, you are of course correct. I've been listening to low power triode amplifiers for years because they do such a wonderful job of 'faking' real music -- especially with regard to midrange frequencies, which is the bulk of what we listen to while the fake musicians do their work in our listening rooms. What can I do other than plead guilty to the charge!? You have me pegged like a rare species of beetle in the entomology wing of a natural history museum!

...and: some of these arguments over power and wattage remind me of the discussions that take place in my high school classroom over automobile amps. The difference is that those fellas talk about their systems in a way that still conveys respect for one another. That one system might consist of nothing more than a pair of 6.5" coaxial drivers and a simple CD/tuner/amp head unit -- and another might employ a custom install of dedicated tweeters, midrange drivers, and subwoofers, all powered by a host of very powerful amps and active crossovers -- doesn't matter. They seem to have a gut-level understanding of the fact that system complexity is an individual issue and sometimes related to 'means.' What is common is the hobby and the interest, and that's the thing that matters. Owner's of the fancy stuff might say something like "Dude! you've gotta hear the new pair of 12"s I got!" and they'll meet after school to listen rather than fling sarcastic insults at one another over amplification strength.

Have a good Sunday,

Erik

[dodger]

Thank You Wolfram. One day we just may meet.

ERIK: Though I have MC-60s and MC 240s, wouldn't they technically be considered flea amps when used with Klipsch?

At one time I owned a 2105. In getting quite a bit of volume, I never surpassed 3 watts.

So though I had the capability of more, if I did not need and did not use more than three watts I was in the flea area. Sort of like using a cannon to put down a horse.

[Erik Mandaville]

Win:

I think you are right. With Klipschorns, even owners of quite powerful amps are probably not listening to more than a few watts at the most. If the room is very large, than it's true more power can and would be a help -- or if a system were being used to also reproduce realastic LF movie sound effects. In our room, which is about 16 X 21 X 10, even 1/2 of a watt is very loud with Klipschorns. Doubtless this will turn to the importance of headroom, and that with 1.5 or 3 watts there isn't very much.

I recentlly repaired a PP 6BQ5 amp for the brother of a forum member, and it was a great sounding amp in two channel with the Klipschorns. The bass was also more controlled than what I usually here with my 2A3 amps, but I think I prefer the midrange and HF response of the triodes -- or the digital Teac, which is as good or better than any amp I have.

At only half the max rated output of the Moth, Moondogs, and Horus amps, both Wolfram's DRD 45s and the Transcendent SE OTLs were really, really good sounding. The size of the listening area is obviously an important consideration in this, but I would say that musical tastes and preferences play an equal role, such as those times I want to rock the joint with harp music (that was with headphones, by the way...)

Erik

[sfogg]

Erik,

For a DIY sub following anothers design is always an option. Some of the companies that sell sub drivers have recommended enclosure sizes for their drivers. Some even have cutting plans for their reference design.

But for something like a subwoofer designing one from scratch is pretty simple too.

Using something like UniBox (or dozens of others)

http://home20.inet.tele.dk/kou/ubdwnld.html

You can model the driver(s) you are looking at in various configurations (sealed, ported...etc..etc) in various different enclosure volumes. Then after you have a volume you like you can build the cabinet however you want. Just make sure it is braced well and that the internal volume is what you modeled it to be earlier on.

Shawn