Into the deep with headphones

[Erik Mandaville]

Shawn:

"As a mater of fact in your system you can tell me exactly what your max peak possible volume levels would be *at the listening position* per speaker in 5 seconds or less and it would be accurate as long as the amps aren't compressing/clipping.

That is what is so nice about having a calibrated volume control. Remember when you balanced all channels to 75dB in the setup on the Lex? That also calibrates the volume control, as it does on any THX certified pre-pro."

I somehow missed this point yesterday! If this is indeed the case, that is an interesting aspect of the Lexicon I haven't considered, and didn't realize it also simultaneously calibrates the volume control.

My problem is due to the fact that I've got a few SET amps in the system, and as such are in a perpetual state of clipping. However, I have managed to delude myself into believing they actually sound good. Big Brother would have been proud, indeed! I admit that Irish harp music played at only moderate volume is probably as unsophisticated as it gets, but there you have it.

Honestly, though, thanks for teaching me about the Lexicon. It's an amazing unit that has enabled our system to 'fake'the presence of real-live music in a thoroughly convincing way!

Erik

[Erik Mandaville]

Hi, Paul:

You asked, "Since you've mentioned that the $99 TEAC digital amp is, in your opinion, at least as good as any of your other amps, why not unload all of your expensive SET amps?"

See? I've known that deep down, you're really interested in SETism! But gosh, I feel so cornered by that question Let me make a list of reasons for you:

1. I've thought about it. We've had so many medical bills lately because of my wife's surgery and my back that some extra money might be a help. Last Thursday, our 14 year-old Golden Retriever (Tonka) suffered a severe stroke, which has very strongly influenced his ability to control seemingly the entire left side of his body. Vet bills can be extremely expensive.

2. They have some very definite sentimental value to me. My Horus are still not paid for. Through my school district credit union, I borrowed against my own savings in order to buy the parts to build them, so decided to keep them until that's over with -- which is not too far away, now. I offered them to a friend for the cost of the parts alone, but he felt that even then they were on the expensive side. He's right, those parts were not cheap, but I think they are well made, took lots of hard work, and I was willing to let him have them for just the parts cost.

3. They are being used as the L/R amplifiers, the Teac being a really fine match for the Lowther side channels, and the La Scala center channel -- all three of which are rolled off at 120 Hz. This combination was unexpectedly good sounding -- I love it! I'm using the infamous KR Enterprise 2A3s that sound fantastic in the Horus amps.

4. My Moondogs are being used with the Heresies, and are an outstanding match with them. The rear channel of this system is really superb -- to me and IMO.

5. The Moth 2A3 amp is a killer headphone amp, and I'm using it along with the preamp I made last summer for headphone listening on weekdays. Speaking of which, they are warming up as I waste time with this!

6. My wife loves the sound of all of them, and it would make her sad to see all these fruits of hard but enjoyable labor suddenly go to someone who might not take very good care of them.

7. I love to see the tubes glow in the dark while I listen to music.

8. The Teac doesn't have a headphone jack (doesn't mean I couldn't install one though) Hey! Thanks for giving me this idea, Paul! You're a genius!

9. I would be angry at myself if I sold them.

10. I've got the system pretty carefully balanced and sounding really good -- after much experimentation and adjustment. I don't want to mess that up, because I'm listening to more music than I have in a long time.

And....you're right, the Teac digital amp sounds as good as any of them, and is far better than any amplifier I have with respect to residual noise, hum, etc.

Would you like to know anything else? Fire away!

[Erik Mandaville]

Max:

Forgive my not atttending or responding to your post. I was caught up with defending the fact that some listeners prefer lower power single-ended amplifiers over other options, and wanted to submit that the preference wasn't necessarily based on fantasy or delusion. In fact, you once encouraged me to listen to some more higher power tube amplifiers, but did so in a way that didn't have 'untoward' overtones. I have repaired and worked on a number of Push-pull circuits, and found some very enjoyable traits. I have thought about another Teac amp to replace the Horus as the L/R amplifiers, but seemed to have stumbled on some sort of system synergy that works particularly well -- and so am reluctant to change it. The Horus are also incredibly good sounding SET amps, and work well with the Klipschorns.

Anyway, thanks for suggesting some options for subwoofers. I know several people who use them with Klipschorns -- Wolfram, Craig Born2, Shawn, and some others -- and I really liked what I heard when I had the chance to hear one. I have some options available in terms of a DIY project, a possible layaway plan on another, and so forth. It would also be fun to build an amp for it, but we'll see how it goes. Money is kind of a factor right now.

Thanks,

Erik

[smuttynose]

any opinion on the grado cans?

[Erik Mandaville]

Paul (again....)

"But as for using them to create a natural presentation of music, forget about it."

What Does "a natural presentation of music" sound like? I think you are incorrect. Good headphones with a good amplifier can sound excellent. But then again, this is coming from a guy who uses flea watt triode amps, right?!

You're right again, please disregard the comment above. However, if you can give some qualifying characteristics of "a natural presentation of music," it would be helpful.

Erik

[sfogg]

Erik,

"I somehow missed this point yesterday! If this is indeed the case, that is an interesting aspect of the Lexicon I haven't considered, and didn't realize it also simultaneously calibrates the volume control."

Yup, the way it works is when you go into the Internal Noise Test it automatically sets the main volume at 00dB. The noise it plays through each speaker is 'recorded' at -30dB. You then use the speaker trims to get everything to 75dB at the listening position.

Since a -30dB signal with the volume at 00dB is playing at 75dB at the listening position you know a 0dBFS signal with the volume at 00dB has a max single channel output of 105dB.

So when you change the volume you just add/subtract whatever the volume says from 105dB and that is what the peak output per speaker would be at the listening position.

The Lex. actually uses that it 'knows' the SPL at the listening position for things like the Loudness function. It adds the proper amount of bass boost for the SPL level you are currently listening at. If lower SPL it adds more bass, at higher SPL it adds less.

Shawn

[sfogg]

"any opinion on the grado cans?"

I haven't heard the top line Grado's but their less expensive models are good sounding too. I have a pair of SR-60s and they are well regarded as a bargain. They aren't quite as comfortable as some other 'phones though so try them on if you can.

Shawn

[sfogg]

Erik,

" Good headphones with a good amplifier can sound excellent. "

Ever heard any binaural recordings through headphones?

They can sound *stunning.* If you have the Sheffield Gold "My Disc" try track 85 or 86 through headphones. Or track 15 on the Stereophile Test CD 3.

One thing about binaural playback (and most headphone playback) that is very distracting for some is if you turn your head the perspective of course moves with your head. That is obviously phoney and bothers some people more then others.

[mike stehr]

I'm still happy with my SVS 16/46's.......Adire is going to make a 18 inch Tumult or is already doing so.

A 18 Tumult.....Poundage....

[Parrot]

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On 5/23/2005 8:00:12 PM Erik Mandaville wrote:

You're right again, please disregard the comment above. However, if you can give some qualifying characteristics of "a natural presentation of music," it would be helpful.

----------------

I imagine it must be annoying, that I'm right again. But what can I say?

Something to ponder: You have the finest loudspeakers made, and yet you're extolling headphones. That leads me to think that 1) Your amps are not doing the Klipschorns justice, and/or 2) Your room is not doing the Klipschorns justice, and/or 3) You have some, let's say, "odd" ideas about music, and/or 4) A combination of the first three.

Hyperdetail and hyperrealism is not the way of natural music.

[edwinr]

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On 5/23/2005 8:00:12 PM Erik Mandaville wrote:

What Does "a natural presentation of music" sound like?

----------------

Hey, Eric. What a question! My view is that a natural presentation of music has less bearing on the actual overall level you listen at. It has more to do with the ability of the transducers (and the accompanying amplifier) to reproduce ALL of the music at the choosen listening level. I would not expect my ideal music system to merely reproduce the dominant, or loudest note, that is playing at the time. I want my system to reproduce the other, quieter sounds as well. In some ways, I find lessor systems (and in some cases, lower powered systems) sound a little like Dolby Digital encoded film material. The only sound that matters is the loudest one - so 'lets not worry about the rest of the signal'.

Factored into this, is the requirement for my system to interact with my room. I guess it has something to do with room reflections and stuff. I'm not technically trained enough to expand any further on this thought. But to my mind, headphones can never approach the realism of a live performance. They sound too 'shut-in'.

[dodger]

My point is neither defending nor disrespecting.

I'm curious as to hearing sensitivity and its role in how people judge SET.

ERIK: I have one of the old Koss units to be connected to an amplifier or pre-amp if none is on the unit. Yours for shipping. PM me if interested. In perfect shape.

Win

[fini]

"a natural presentation of music"

Diana Krall with hairy armpits.

[edwinr]

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On 5/23/2005 11:00:37 PM fini wrote:

"a natural presentation of music"

Diana Krall with hairy armpits.

----------------

[maxg]

Erik,

Thanks for the response - I did wonder if you saw it amongst the baiting. I am also glad that my suggestion some time ago of the possibility of higher power amplification being a route worth investigating did not cause offence.

This whole Low power SET / Higher power PP issue raises such bewildering venom in posters I tend to steer well clear.

Further, the direction you are now following - with signal processors, surround sound, digital amplification (and source) is so different from my own course that I really am on shakey ground offering any advice.

I profer the REL merely because when I used it with my Heresy's the match was astounding. It really was impossible to tell where the speaker stopped and the sub started. The result was a Heresy that played down to 20 Hz - as evenly as any system I have ever come across.

The funny thing is that because of our wildly different systems, you are now an integral part of my "all roads lead to Rome" theory of audio. Our pathways are radically different. We do not have a single component in common, nor even a single topology - and yet we both have systems that we appear to love listening to.

If it gets the music across to you - in a way you enjoy - then no-one can say it works or otherwise, other than you.

The argument that a SET amp's liquid midrange is brought about due to its poor performance in the extremes of the audio frequency spectrum matters not one jot if it is midrange you crave.

It would only become apparent should you add a sub and/or a super-tweeter. I think this is something you are about to discover for yourself. With a good sub you will have the bass response in spades. If the mid-range suffers as a result then Craig is right. If not - Nirvana awaits. I think this an experiment worth trying - whatever the result. Even if the midrange performance tails of a tad - the increase in bass may well more than compensate for its loss.

One final thing. I really do admire you in your quest. You so regularly "throw the rulebook" and follow the path less travelled by I find it astounding. As time passes my system gradually becomes ever more conventionally audiophile - I dont think I could go where you have gone, or do what you have done.

Keep going! Many of us are living vicariously off your journey.

[edwinr]

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On 5/24/2005 2:29:26 AM maxg wrote:

The argument that a SET amp's liquid midrange is brought about due to its poor performance in the extremes of the audio frequency spectrum matters not one jot if it is midrange you crave.

----------------

Others in this forum might wish to argue this midrange emphasis is actually a feature.

Even if the amplifier of choice has a slight midrange emphasis, at the expense of the frequency extremes, this is not as important as the inability of an amplifier to reproduce the micro and macro dynamics of the music at your choosen listening level. Even when driving relatively sensitive loudspeakers.

[Erik Mandaville]

Win: That is extremely nice of you -- I very much appreciate the fact that you are offering this. Thanks!

Edwin: It's possible you may have some idea as to the length to which this discussion over power has gone in the past few years. Moreover, there are a significant number of Klipsch Heritage owners like myself who find that SET amps can be an outstanding match with sensitive horns. Some of the contributors to this thread may be aware of the review and interview with Pual Klipsch that Vacuum Tube Valley magazine did on the Klipschorn. In brief, the amplifiers they thought to be ideal with this particular speaker were those with low power 2A3 triodes. 300Bs were on the list, as well, and I have even heard how extremely good they sound with 45s, which at a smidgen over a single watt were amazingly good with Klipschorns -- IMO. I am also not alone in that regards, since there are also a few here who use single-ended 45 amps. My amps do not sound rolled off in the higher frequencies, but do seem to be down a little -- not much but a little -- in the LF ranges.

Paul: Yes, I think listening to music headphones instead of watching TV can be a great way to spend weeknight evenings. My wife and I can spend some time together, too -- but just take different mental diversions from work and other cocnerns. Wouldn't you agree that headphones make sense in this instance? On the weekends, the amps -- the whole lot of them -- are on constantly.

Max: I absolutely agree. What matters is that one likes what one hears, and I am as surprised as you concerning this route into surround sound. For me it has been an improvement, but that certainly doesn't mean it would be right for someone else. I suspect that's one of the things that makes audio enjoyable -- we can choose what works and sounds best on an individual basis.

Shawn: Thanks for mentioning the binaural recordings. Something else to try!

Erik

[edwinr]

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On 5/24/2005 4:52:47 AM Erik Mandaville wrote:

My amps do not sound rolled off in the higher frequencies, but do seem to be down a little -- not much but a little -- in the LF ranges.

----------------

Hi, Eric. I'm not suggesting that any SET amplifier sounds rolled off. From what I've heard, certain tube amplifers tend to sound a little soft in the bass compared to solid state. This is a trade off that many tube lovers are prepared to accept.

I have said before that certain SET amplifers CAN sound very attractive. In fact I can understand why this sound could be almost addictive to some people. BUT, what I am trying to do, in my own mind, is to understand WHY a particular SET amplifier sounds like it does. I am not prepared to accept the word 'magic' in the answer.

I have identified certain features of the 'SET' sound. I find the debate on SET v PP very interesting - stimulating in fact.

The concern I have is some forum members (not you of course), become very defensive. I would not be surprised to learn that other forum members are probably just sitting back, listening to their 300b/horn based systems, with a quiet smile of contentment on their faces, a malt in their hand, and the knowledge that they have hit the jackpot!

[Erik Mandaville]

Good Morning, Edwin:

Of course I get defensive -- and if you check the nature of this debate over the past few years, you will find examples of defensiveness in the extreme. Virtually everyone who has contributed to this thread will remember how heated some of those 'exchanges' had become.

I understand what you're saying about the SS issue, Edwin. I have heard great sounding SS amps, and I have heard some that made my ears begin to hurt after periods of extended listening.

Sure. The term magic has nothing to do with this, although I admit the word has been useful to me in describing the sense of realism I've encountered with surround sound. Building most of my own equipment, I know enough in a technical sense to have an understanding of why different amps may sound different to one another -- as does Craig NOS -- who pointed this out, too.

oops, the time! ..........I've got a final to get ready, but might develop this more later (or not)

Erik

[Erik Mandaville]

Paul:

You said:

"I imagine it must be annoying, that I'm right again. But what can I say?

Something to ponder: You have the finest loudspeakers made, and yet you're extolling headphones. That leads me to think that 1) Your amps are not doing the Klipschorns justice, and/or 2) Your room is not doing the Klipschorns justice, and/or 3) You have some, let's say, "odd" ideas about music, and/or 4) A combination of the first three.

Hyperdetail and hyperrealism is not the way of natural music.

Ok, as reluctant as I am to do this, here goes.... First, My wife thought I would like a pair of headphones, since she remembers how often I used to listen to music that way when I was in high school and college. I lived in either a dorm or an apartment (both with thin walls) where it would have been a bother to my neighbors to have to listen to music at the volume I wanted to listen. Decent headphones were the perfect answer, and I think you would agree with that -- though maybe not. The Moth is the only amplifier I have that has a headphone jack, and she got them for me to use with that -- on weeknights when she watches TV. I'm so tired of being around literally thousands of students all day, that quiet music listening is the perfect remedy for me. Harp music (which happened to be the selection on that fateful evening), has always sounded soft and very melodic to me. You're right about my odd ideas about music, too: I don't think music necessarily needs to be as loud as my system will play in order to sound good, which of course is decidedly unsophisticated on my part.

Does it or does it not make sense to you that headphones would be a good choice for two people who enjoy being together, but may want to relax in different ways? Will you answer this question, please? You didn't respond to what I asked you about your thoughts on what "naturally reproduced music sounds like" but maybe you will consider my reason for using headphones.

Lastly, I'm particularly interested in your response to this sentence I copied from above: "Hyperdetail and hyperrealism is not the way of natural music." You said this in reference to how I listen to music, correct?

Let me in turn ask you this: If I am using triode amps, which evidently are rolled off at the frequency extremes; are mushy and dull sounding with Klipschorns; and are in fact making completely inadequate use of the abilities of the loudspeaker -- how do you come to the conclusion that what I'm listening to is either "hyperdetailed" or ultra-real? If an SET amp is so seriously compromised by its performance characteristics compared to that of more powerful tube amps, it seems to me that those two traits would be among the first to suffer, don't you?

Yes, my feathers are very ruffled that "you're right again."

If you would, please respond to what I have asked above -- I have answered your question/comments, would you kindly do the same for me?

Thanks Paul!

Erik