How Do I Add A Center Channel to My 2 Channel System

[Gilbert]

I okay, I know I need the 3rd amp, but what's the best way to get a true blue 3 Channel system. Both my Tuner and Preamp on have a LEFT & RIGHT Main Output.

What's the missing piece to this puzzle?

[sfogg]

Gilbert,

"I know I need the 3rd amp"

A third speaker helps too.

It very much depends upon what approach you want to take.

Are you looking to derive a center channel from your existing recordings or are you looking to try the three channel recordings that are out there?

For a simple passive method the 'minibox' is what you need.

For more active methods a processor is what you need. There is a large variety of them out there (some work much better then others). Some are built as add ons to an existing stereo pre-amp... some are full blown pre-amps in their own right.

Your budget will also play a big role in which way you want to go.

Shawn

[Gilbert]

----------------

On 3/25/2005 10:06:11 PM sfogg wrote:

It very much depends upon what approach you want to take.

Are you looking to derive a center channel from your existing recordings or are you looking to try the three channel recordings that are out there?

For a simple passive method the 'minibox' is what you need.

For more active methods a processor is what you need.

Shawn

----------------

Thanks Shawn, I wish I knew what you were talking about there, I'm not a techo-wizard. But I'd like to know if there's a gadget or black box component that will let me listen to any of my CD's or Records, or even my Tuner with a 3rd channel.

Does such a component exist? I don't think (?) that cost will be a factor.

[sfogg]

". But I'd like to know if there's a gadget or black box component that will let me listen to any of my CD's or Records, or even my Tuner with a 3rd channel. "

Yes, and there are gadget/black boxes that will do more then just three channels if you so desire.

Try reading some of these threads for example and some background:

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=57273

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=57502

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=57848

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=58536

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=61287

Then let me know what questions you may have. There are other approaches as well.

"I don't think (?) that cost will be a factor."

Never say that... we love spending other peoples money!

Shawn

[dbflash]

Gibert,

Shawn has the posts you need to get started.

You can get in touch with members DrBill or Erik Mandaville. They both have made the box. i think there are others, but I can't remember them now.

danny

[DrWho]

Btw, you don't HAVE to have a third amplifier to do this either...one of the boxes works from the output of your amps at speaker level, instead of the more typical line level boxes. That advantage to the third amp is that it gives you much simpler control over the center channel volume.

[Erik Mandaville]

Gilbert:

"Thanks Shawn, I wish I knew what you were talking about there, I'm not a techo-wizard."

I can certainly understand how some of this might start to sound overly involved and complex, Gilbert, but deriving a third channel from your existing system is really very simple and straightforward. However, as Shawn indicated, a third speaker is pretty much of a prerequisite. That this third speaker be an exact match to the stereo pair is not required, and I got decent results using a couple of different speakers as the center channel for our Klischorns. If you try it and find it is an improvement over stereo alone (I did!), it might be worth it to find a third speaker that fairly closely matches the main speakers. This can be important in the sense that it helps create a more seamless integration between all three channels.

Using the Klipsch 'minibox' as mentioned in the links Shawn provided is a passive approach to obtaining the information (music signal)needed for the third channel. You might think of it as being similar to adding an extra faucet and sink to a spare room in your home. The new faucet taps into the existing plumbing, and the new sink and drain 'contribute' and add to the overall waste line output. By regulating the strength of the signal going to the third amplifier, the minibox is like the valve in the new faucet. A signal is taken from the left channel of the amplifier, as well as one from the right channel, and these are combined together in the minibox. This combined signal is then sent to the volume control, which then passes it onto the third amplifier. From there, the signal of course travels to the third speaker. The volume control on the passive minibox is important, because it enables you to adjust the output of the third speaker. If we go back to our plumbing analogy, if all you had was a pipe going into the sink, without a means to control the strength of the flow, water would spray all over the place at a velocity much higher than all of the other faucets in the house. It would be like a singer in a choir who is screaming at the top of his or her lungs while the rest of the group is much quieter and controlled.

When adjusted properly, you can get a very, very good integration of the third channel. In fact, I was able to get the third speaker (a La Scala in this case)to seemingly vanish, leaving only a very interestingly woven and seamless fabric of sound. It's really a pretty cool effect. I can say with conviction that the minibox was far and away the most simple and inexpensive component I have built, yet it yielded easily the largest impact on the sound of our system. I am now using an actual digital processor, and will be adding the pair of Heresys that just arrived yesterday (with one corner bashed) into the system as the side channels.

Listening like this is different from two channel listening, and you might find you have to 'learn' how to experience it. For me, it's as close to being at a real, live musical event as I have ever been. I will say it is quite different from two channel stereo, and one needs to be sort of be 'open' about how one responds to the effect. I also want to mention that I had been pretty much of a very two-channel-only sort of listener before this. Not only that, but I would refuse to use any sort of amplification device, preamp or amp, that didn't use vacuum tubes. Listening with the Lexicon has really been a rather liberating experience in that respect; and, in relearning my approach to listening and how I think about listening, I'm finding that amazingly good sound absolutely does not HAVE to be associated with glowing tube filaments. For the time being, though, I will be using our tube amps for the side and rear channels. I think they will be particularly well suited to that for a number of reasons.

Good luck, let us know if we can help.

Erik

[Gilbert]

I will research as suggested. Having a 3rd speaker is not a problem. Trust me, I've got Speakers coming out the wazoo. With several just sitting at idle. Begging for a third channel.

What made me think about it is the fact that David...the guy mentioned in my other thread about the vintage mac and marantz gear, has a beatiful MC60 that matches mine perfectly. And I'd love to buy it. All I need is an excuse and some money.

[Dflip]

Tom Mobley was gratious enough to offer to build me a center channel mini box over a month ago. The cost was quite reasonable and I now have it incorporated into my system. The center channel is being run by an old SAE 50 W SS amp, fed into the center channel box and then into the Peach. The rest of the system is powered by a pair of MC-30's. I have been impressed so far with the results. It does fill in the gap in the middle and makes for a very pleasant listening experience.

Tom listened to the version he built for me and has decided to make another one for himself since mine sounded better. I went to a metal shop and got a six pieces of 1/4 x 1 1/2" metal cut joined in pairs with two-sided tape. Each pair was then taped to the bottom front of the amp to deal with the weight of the RCA jacks and interconnects which are at the back of the plastic black box. This solution worked very well.

If I decide to later, I can look for a single MC-30 to add as a center channel, but in the mean time, I have an economical solution that is very relaxing to listen to at night. For the price, $50, it was well worth it. I figured if it didn't help, then I was out a couple of bucks. If it did work, it was a cheap tweak to improve the system. It turned out to be a great cheap tweak.

Thanks, Tom

Don

[colterphoto1]

Gilbert, what exactly is 'speakers coming out the wazoo'? I fear that I, too, suffer from this malady...

Michael

[Tom Mobley]

nice of you to post that comment Don. I thought your mini-box came out really well. I've just ordered parts for two more, one for me and one for whoever wants one.

Michael, the "speakers out the wazoo" deal is very similar to the "money out the wazoo" ad that used to run on CNN.

[johnyholiday]

dynaco qd-1, http://kantack.com/surround/surround4.html#tag4inside, http://cgi.ebay.com/DYNACO-QD-1-SERIES-II-SURROUND-SOUND-PROCESSOR_W0QQitemZ5800869028QQcategoryZ50595QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Daddy Dee]

Tom,

You are building the minibox from PWK's schematic in DfH? Which of those do you prefer?

[Frzninvt]

Gilbert,

I can fax you all the information that you need, I have all the Dope from Hope information and enough PWK technical information to make your head explode! The box is relatively simple and requires a few resistors to build. Email me a fax number and I can try to have it to you in the next couple of days. I could even .pdf it, and send it electronically. Let me know.

[PrestonTom]

Gilbert,

A center channel box is really quite simple. Look up the diagram from the DFH postings (Dr Bill had one, as did others). There are two configurations. The bottom one listed uses the outputs from the amp and then inserts a few 1/2 watt resistors and a resistor pot (audio taper). I find this configuration to have some small advantges. In addition a small plastc project box and some RCA connctors are needed. These are basically Radio Shack parts and will not cost more than about $10. All you need is a solder gun and handrill. I would not bother with the dynaco version, at least not as a first step. Do not worry about fancy resistors.

The trick is getting the level set up correctly. You only need a little gain on the center channel. Most of the energy will be coming from the L & R speakers. Because of this, you can get away with a more modest amp/speaker for your center channel. Adjust the gain so that the center image (usually the singer & percussion) have a more "anchored" or "defined" location. While at the same time you still get the stereo image extending from the Left to the Right sides.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[Tom Mobley]

I use the low-level one, not the one that uses the speaker wires for input. works out pretty cool, I had a SOny 333ES plugged into the inputs and a 3-channel TEAC AL-700P hooked to the three outputs. I was really surprised at the quality of sound and I was able to adjust the center to make the center Belle fill in just right. It has the best imaging I've ever gotten on my system. 'Course, I'm sure it would be much nicer with a Blueberry as input and 3 VRD's or MC-30s as power amps. To bad I can't afford that stuff.

[garymd]

RPlace and I will be picking up our Belles this weekend so I've been thinking about my future 3-channel system and have some questions.

1) How can I do it without a 3rd amp? Can a minibox be built that just utilizes my 2 MkIIIs or future VRDs/pCATs? Can I have a box built that will use 2 amps for now until I get a third?

2) With 2-channel, the soundstage on many recordings puts the voice or a particlar instrument dead center. Other instruments can be anywhere. The drums may be just left of center. The sax may be just right of center. Other instruments may be all the way right or left. Question: Will the instruments that were between center and left (or right) now sound like they're coming from the center speaker or will I still get the original soundstage?

Thanks.

[Good2BHome]

Gilbert,

A different approach:

Over the years I've tried most, if not all of the derived approachs mentioned above (and still have a Dynaco laying around) and they all work to varing degrees with varing degrees of convience.

But the real answer, to me, is an pre-amplifer that has a Center Channel output. A McIntosh C-26, C-28, MX-130, etc. I'm sure the're other brands also, but I and McIntosh go way back. I currently have a MX-130. It makes a large difference.

You have a siginificant investment in quality speakers and amps. Find a pre-amp that suits you and your equipment, which has a center channel output IMHO.

Mike

[Dflip]

Here is the speaker version from the DFH.

[Dflip]

Here is the schematic for the amp version: