rplace Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 Ever since my trip to GaryMDs house I have been kicking around the idea of getting back into vinyl. I really have no clue in this department so be gentle. Last turn table I had was a techniques back in the early 80s. An all in one job bought at a big box store. I am guessing that the real vinyl heads buy separate parts and build the ultimate set up as they see fit. My current set up is a Sunfire Theater Grand IV and 3 carver TFM-25 amps used for a 6.1 HT set up. Obviously not tube gear. Down the road I would like to get a Scott or similar integrated tube amp for two channel listening, but that will have to wait until the fall probably. So what would be a decent middle of the road turn table that I can just plug in and start using? Given the hardware above and Khorns is this even practical? Will I not be happy unless I dive off the deep end and re-mortgage my house? How much should I expect to pay for what ever I needwhile you are at it please tell me what I need. My limited experience tells me arms are not necessarily part of the TT, that is, they can be swapped out. I also gather that in higher end stuff you dont get the needle (stylus, cartridge, etc. what is the proper term?) with the TT. A rough guess of my budget might be a few hundred dollars. Less if I dont really need to spend it, more if I absolutely must in order to not be pi$$ing away that amount on something that will not compliment the rest of my equipment. Final thought, should I focus on some tube gear for 2 channel BEFORE I tackle the turn table and vinyl issue? As usual, thanks a tonyou guys are the best. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 Rich- Sorry to be so lengthy- but it's a good topic for me as I've gone this direction lately as well. Lucky you to get a visit to Gary's place. He's been a great friend of the Forum and helped many of us out. I'm probably one of the top buyers of his 'extra' vinyl. I like the sound, the collectibility, the artwork, and yes, the RITUAL of unsleeving, carefully cleaning, and playing an LP. When it's that much trouble to play for only 18-30 minutes of listening per side, I find myself more transfixed to the music. That is to say, it's too easy to put on a CD, random/repeat play, then go about your chores. With vinyl, I sit down and stay there for the listen. Something about it being so immediate demands my attention, so I find myself doing more 'critical' (odd term, because it's really enjoyable) listening with vinyl. Ok, nuff about the philosophy. I just have two old Technics SL1700 Direct Drive units from my high school days 1976, that were good consumer (not pro DJ) units back in the day. Most folks not shun direct drive because of rumble or motor noise, but I like them because the platter gets up to speed quickly. I used to do a lot of back-cueing to the start of the song when I transferred LP-> Cass for car listening and the famous 'mix-tapes'. With a good quality cartridge (always purchased separately) I probably paid $200 or so each. Would go for probably about that today for used TT with NEW cartridge. Always inspect or just buy a new cartridge, as you can cause horrible LP wear with old diamond. That being said, I guess belt drive is the way to go, especially with Khorns bass, which would really amplify any rumble. The belt mechanically isolates the motor from the platter/tonearm. I don't know of the top brands, but stick around, the guys will point you in the right direction. Just a word of caution- DON'T LOOK AT MAX's RIG- It'll cost you as much as a compact car! Maybe just SEARCH or check the 2ch Forum history. There's been lots of posts and some really good finds on used TT's. Good luck and post your findings if you would. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rplace Posted April 5, 2005 Author Share Posted April 5, 2005 As a side note...it is practical to buy someting like this? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=46503&item=4715957687&rd=1 Just to get a decent stash of LPs or are you asking for trouble by not seeing each album before you buy it? Thanks again, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 You are going to need a TT & phonostage. I would keep my eyes peeled for a Rega P3 TT on Audiogon or Ebay. One can be had with a cartridge from 3 too 500 dollars depending on condition and cartridge on the table. A decent phono stage can be had used on Audiogon for 3 to 400 dollars, just start reading up on them and educate yourself on what may interest you. I chose these price points because I feel below this level of components it will leave you wanting more. To make it worth your while and reap the benefits of vinyl plan to spend 6 too 900 for a setup. JMHO. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 "DON'T LOOK AT MAX's RIG- It'll cost you as much as a compact car!" Hey - I resemble that remark!! OK - bit more serious: Options for "plug and play" turntables (in no particular order): Music Hall Project Rega Check out their models - there are many. Units start at about $250 all in (except phono stage - another $90 for a project phono that will be fine at this point in your vinyl career). There is also a cheap and chearful unit from Goldring - but it really is built to a budget. All of these are state of the art in terms of ease of setup - if not sonics. They should outplay any CD player upto about double their value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rplace Posted April 5, 2005 Author Share Posted April 5, 2005 Ok, I know even less then I thought I did. What is a phono stage? My Sunfire TGIV has a "Moving Magnet Phono input" does that get me anywhere? Quick google search shows me that if I want to improve my turn table I *MUST* have a phono stage (acording to the people selling them). So what gives, nice to have or have to have? Searching the forum for phono stage I see a few posts on what is good/not and what people like, but I am not gleaning the gist of the purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaaaz Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 yep you could get into the music halls for upper 200 range,pro-ject debut 3 are 279.00 and the basis gr1 is 425 and is a rega p2 relabled,these are all complete with arms and carts and are new prices,all would be a good sounding way to get back into vinyl.and since you have a mm phono input you would be all set,no additional phono stage would be needed,phono stages are used when the pre amp doesnt have a phono stage built in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 Max, the ink wasn't even dry on my post! To join in, because I've got these DD antiques, if I were to get one of the listed turntables and plug into any of my Yamaha receivers (all of which have PHONO inputs- on purpose), would I have to get a 'phono stage'? I take it that what you're referring to is an outboard preamp for stereos without the requisite electronics, yes? I understand that the outboard units are prob better, but I'm not rich! Could you recommend a model for new/used good belt drive unit in $300-$500 range? And suitable cartridges? Thanks- we value your opinion in LP-land. What do you think of my CD/LP theory posted above? Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rplace Posted April 5, 2005 Author Share Posted April 5, 2005 Thanks for the info so far. Glad to hear I am ok for the time being without a phono stage, but like CP1 says I am sure having one is better so always something else to shop for. Max, of the ones you mention Rega I have heard of. Not sure if that is good or bad, but somebody in the Rega marketing dept. is doing their job. I did a search on ebay and audiogon for Rega and found this. Is this at all a deal? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3283&item=5765507298&rd=1 sure is ugly and the wording of the auction is just plain silly. But for some reason it sticks out. Always nice to have some one off sort of thing...but why the heck would the guy go to all the trouble and then sell it. Makes me think it is not up to the task. I have no interest at the BIN price, but maybe if it stayed close to the opening bid...then again I would have to look at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazycat Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 I am just getting back into vinly myself and just picked up a Goldring GR-1 at Audio Advisors on closeout for $299. A new model is being released. Its due in tommorrow, but I've read great reviews about it, esp at this price. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 Hi Max: Just a curious - I have a Sony 2251 TT with a Shure/SME 3009 II arm and an Ortofon Cartridge that is now my third. Out of curiousity what are your thoughts? - don't want to get into a long drawn out post. Have 1400 LPs. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 Regas are a good entry point. I have a Planar 3 (the newer one is the P3) they can be had for a good price and they will start you off on the right foot.Here is one on Ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3283&item=5765274098&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW I bought mine on Ebay for $400 with a Grace 747 arm (very close to the 707 arm on this one. Mine has a removeable head shell this one is not) and a Grace cart. I only had to change the belt and it was good as new. Not even any dusting scratches on the cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 Ooops soorry, forgot to ask if you have different choices for ss, Tube, Hybrid. Have to run, someone has to pay the bills. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 Rich, DO NOT buy any vinyl yet. I still have many boxes to go through and you're more than welcome to come over to my "Discount Record Shop" and go through what I have. I'm ready to clear out a lot of LPs. I'd like to get to the point where I don't bring anything new in without getting rid of a similiar amount. I have to clear out about 500 or so before I even get to that point. I think you'll like the selection too. Call me tomorrow at work. There are a number of things we need to chat about. There are a lot of folks here who know a lot more than I do about TTs but I may have an idea or two for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaaaz Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 the GR1 for 299.00 would be hard to beat as it is a rega p2 and has the superb RB250 arm and a decent cart.you can barely buy the rb250 for that money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 Jesus - lots of questions from all over the place. Where to start? OK - who is looking at the Austin Powers paintjob Rega? Anyway - looks fine to me on a cursory glance and the money is very reasonable - Advise to buy. On the phono stage front - my bad. These days so few amps/receivers come with phono stages built in I tend to just assume you need to buy an external one. You just need to check it is a real phono stage in there. For example the Aiwa in my bedroom has a "phono" input but it is actually just a normal input and the manual says "for connection of a pre-amplified turntable" in other words - you still need a phono stage. All the phono stages under discussion are for MM, or hi output MC cartridges only. You won't be able to drive, for example, a Denon 103 with any of them - but a 110 or a 160 will be fine. I have only seen one GR-1 and it had problems so I can't really comment. It does get very good reviews and looks like a steal on paper. The arm is a dumbed down RB250 that should be fine for cartridges around $150. Once you have bought your TT and installed it there is a very easy way to tell if it is working properly. Take 5 titles you have common in CD and LP format. Play the CD. Play the record - switching between the 2 however works best for you. If 4 out of 5 of the records sound better than the CD the thing is working properly. If not - something is probably awry. Win, Do you like the sound it produces? If so - why change? Is it the be all and end all of vinyl? No. Frankly I don't know the unit so it is difficult to comment. I doubt it is up to the standard of a better TT - even a relatively entry level unit. Do you want to change? How much do you want to pay? Jazman would recommend a VPI Scout I guess - he is not wrong. For about $1500 you get a seriously good table that can justify just about any cartridge you care to throw at it as it has very good isolation and a cracking arm. Lower down the budget ladder the new Project Xperience is amazing for the money. I wont say how it compares to the VPI - people get upset. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEvan Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 I had both a Rega P3 and a Technics SP10 with SME 3009II (fixed headshell). The SME is much more fussy than the Rega arm, but I consistently got better performance out of the Technics rig. So I sold the Rega. Ducking for cover! But I'd like a new cartridge and I'm unsHure of what to do. For under 200 clams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 ---------------- On 4/6/2005 8:00:33 AM TheEvan wrote: I had both a Rega P3 and a Technics SP10 with SME 3009II (fixed headshell). The SME is much more fussy than the Rega arm, but I consistently got better performance out of the Technics rig. So I sold the Rega. Ducking for cover! But I'd like a new cartridge and I'm unsHure of what to do. For under 200 clams. ---------------- No need to duck for cover. The SME arm is generally recognised as being better than the Rega RB250 so I would guess that is the source of the improvement - assuming common cartridges and phono stages. It is also worth bearing in mind that cartridges mate with arms differently. A really good arm can be disasterous with the wrong cartridge. You just may have had better synergy with the SME. Attached is a pic of the modded Rega on Tony's TT - I think that would give you SME a run for its money. The mods are extensive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rplace Posted April 6, 2005 Author Share Posted April 6, 2005 Max and the rest of you, These all seem like decent candidates based on my limited knowledge. The first one on audiogon is 300 bucks. The rest are auctions. Can you give me a range of prices for the others of what you think is fair and pros/cons of each set up? http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1117844921 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5764399806&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5764977536&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5765274098&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 I still owe GaryMD a call to see his thoughts as wellThanks again for all the input. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 ---------------- On 4/6/2005 12:35:24 PM rplace wrote: Max and the rest of you, These all seem like decent candidates based on my limited knowledge. The first one on audiogon is 300 bucks. The rest are auctions. Can you give me a range of prices for the others of what you think is fair and pros/cons of each set up? http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1117844921 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5764399806&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5764977536&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5765274098&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 I still owe GaryMD a call to see his thoughts as wellThanks again for all the input. Rich ---------------- My quick 2 cents, The first listing is a decent deal, and the seller is reliable. I have purchased items from him in the past. The Sota "may" also be a decent deal depending on the final bid price, but the seller has only (4) positive feedback score. Know nothing about the NAD unit. The last ebay list has had the table in storage too long. Platter bearing could be dry, motor tired, and belt old. I don't know how well the Grace arm works with the rega. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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