The SET Debate (again)

[michael hurd]

"Although this fact is certain to be lost on you Power Rangers, it is the owner of the small SET amplifier whom has truly come to appreciate high fidelity sound. Something to ponder as you twiddle the pots on your preamplifiers, undoubtedly named after a pie filling. And of course, whilst listening to selections garnered from the uncompressed music aisle of the record store."

High fidelity should be just that. I do not consider adding a device that will add a certain sound, or change the frequency response, "high fidelity". Again, on the other hand, I have less sensitive speakers, and listen at higher volumes than some of the others. Therefore, I would not choose those topology amplifiers for myself. Anyone else is free to do what they prefer.

[Deang]

"Being someone whom earns their worth with my ears, I prefer a similar sound in my home and in my control room."

God help us.

[dodger]

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On 5/1/2005 12:15:56 PM michael hurd wrote:

"Although this fact is certain to be lost on you Power Rangers, it is the owner of the small SET amplifier whom has truly come to appreciate high fidelity sound. Something to ponder as you twiddle the pots on your preamplifiers, undoubtedly named after a pie filling. And of course, whilst listening to selections garnered from the uncompressed music aisle of the record store."

High fidelity should be just that. I do not consider adding a device that will add a certain sound, or change the frequency response, "high fidelity". Again, on the other hand, I have less sensitive speakers, and listen at higher volumes than some of the others. Therefore, I would not choose those topology amplifiers for myself. Anyone else is free to do what they prefer.

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And that truly sums up what this Audio Lifestyle and Hobby allows. People to be free to do what they prefer.

It's a fun hobby with serious costs.

And for those that make excellent products and provide them to Forum Members at a discounted price, it is a very serious business in which they devote a lot of time, energy and pride.

The third making the discount given even higher in comparison to other similar products.

[jt1stcav]

First off, welcome to the Klipsch Forums, Ian.

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On 5/1/2005 11:18:49 AM Audio Flynn wrote:

..."My favorite live nearfield listening experience is right in the middle of the drum line ( drum corp) about 20 feet away."

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A little off topic, but my favorite live nearfield listening experience was right inside the Great Division organ chamber of the 1972 Gress-Miles pipe organ during a Simon Preston organ recital at South Church, New Britain, CT, back in the early '80s!

My dad received a last-minute call for an emergency tuning right before a recital was to begin because the church's AC was being repaired beforehand; while the AC was down for several days the humidity threw the organ's pipes (especially the reeds) way off tune! The organ's temperament wasn't affected so the entire organ wasn't completely out of tune, so my dad enlisted my help for the spot tuning, finding the worse offenders and putting them back into proper tune. I sat at the organ's 3 manual console and held down keys while my dad was up in the organ chambers tuning the organ, with about an hour before the recital was to begin!

With about 10 minutes left before Mr. Preston was to begin his concert, a cipher (a stuck-on pipe that plays without a key depressed on the keyboard) developed on one of the small trumpet reed pipes (dust fell into the pipe's resonator and lodged itself between the boot of the pipe and the chest pallet (or toe hole) the pipe sits in, making that note stick on...a quick fix). Problem was that right after my dad cleaned out the dirt and placed the pipe back into place, the British organist was already seated at the console to begin his recital! We then realized that we'd make way too much noise getting all our tools and making haste out of the organ chamber, which would be quite audible throughout the vast interior of this large church, especially while walking briskly on squeeky wooden planks that make up the chamber's floor. So we decided to just sit there quietly on the floor of the Great Division amongst all those pipes while Simon Preston gave his entire 90 minute recital, playing all sorts of organ compositions large and small, and made sure not to sneeze, cough, belch, or fart, for it would be heard due to the church's fine natural acoustics! Sure, our ears were ringing afterwards (organs by nature are loud; they're played through about 2" of wind pressure...some ranks like the firey reed stops and large bass pedal ranks are played through 5" of wind or more, up to 20" on huge cathedral and theatre organs) due to there's no volume control or expression from inside the chamber, only on the outside opening of the chambers to the Swell Division which have venetian blind-like shutters that controls volume to the audience by a foot pedal on the console. But it was a worthwhile experience nonetheless...you've never really heard pipe organ music in all its glory until you're seated inside the organ's very guts while the organist is playing the instrument in "Grande Tutti"!

Talking about "surround sound"...

[TBrennan]

Hmmmm, a new player and an erudite and well spoken one at that.

[laurenc319]

Mike..

How is the picture related to the discussion ?

Larry

[laurenc319]

Is anyone else using push-pull triode amps in this group. Would love to hear what you think of them.

BTW, read this guy's articles, a lot of good stuff here

http://www.meta-gizmo.com/tri/index-1.html

Larry

[NOSValves]

So who's the proud owner of are newest sock puppet?

Craig

[NOSValves]

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On 5/1/2005 11:09:00 AM triode wrote:

khornn,

Well said. There are a few here that beat this topic to death. they have driven a few folks off of this forum, because of the 'Jerry Springer' type rantings. Mostly anti-SET amps.

They seem to use this forum for their own personal audio business advertising. From what I've seen here. when anything is posted about SET amps, these few will jump in and start knocking these amps. Have not seen the other way around. So you can see where the problem lays.----------------

[sfellini]

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On 5/1/2005 2:02:18 PM jt1stcav wrote:

my favorite live nearfield listening experience was right inside the Great Division organ chamber

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Thanks for that! Wonderful story.

Steve.

[grillecloth]

Lurker Newbie Poster myself

Many choices of words but why fall to using foul? And do so on Sunday? I am impressed.

[DizRotus]

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On <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />

5/1/2005

2:41:41 PM TBrennan wrote: <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Hmmmm, a new player and an erudite and well spoken one at that.

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Agreed.

Nevertheless, whether polysyllabic and well spoken or barely literate, it doesnt bode well around here to be arrogant or thin skinned.

Some here seem to feel that every comment is meant as a personal attack.

Civility and open-mindedness, tempered with a bit of humor, facilitate the discourse and exchange of opinions, which after all is what they are, merely opinions.

Everyone is free to embrace or reject the opinions of others.

[kev313]

So, last night was my symphony night (we have season tickets to the CSO, lower balcony left side 7 and 8 seats in, row D) and it occurs to me, "Hey, I cannot replicate this sound with my 45 or 2a3 amps. For those who are not familiar with Orchestra Hall here in Chicago, lower balcony is the way to go (unless you can roll with the Box seat balcony people. I cannot). For some reason the acoustics of that place just don't work all that well, or as well anyway, anywhere on the ground level - sort of flies by overhead. The LB, on the other hand, is just the right height and distance to be able to hear a soundstage that actually goes with the stage.

Back to the story...I cannot do it. Just can't I'll admit it. 2a3's and 45's will break down at concert level volumes during certain movements. It's true! My second realization, however, was that those limitations are just fine with this listener. My house is small and REALLY close to my neighbors - that's the price you pay for living in Chicago. At the volumes I listen at, with the music I listen to, SET sounds the best. Do I get the impact of the 1812 cannon blast. Heck, no. I will conceed that that is the case even if you were to turn that famous example into a piece of actual music with similar "dynamics" (I guess that would be macro-dynamics?). I sacrifice that as well. But I wouldn't trade it for what I get in return. Hell, the cops would be here in a second if I recreated a CSO event in my house. At my listening levels, SET has it all and it has it all better than any high power PP or solid state design that I have ever heard.

Does that limit my listening choices. Yes, in my opinion. Again, I just cannot get Metallica to sound good on my system. I do think, however, that at my normal and comfortable listening levels, Metallica on SET sounds like Metallica on PP. Then again, Metallica at my normal levels sucks anyway. I would guess that the same holds true for ACDC, but I'll never know. I think they suck at ANY level. My opinion, of course.

I have to admit that this topic is always entertaining, as it seems to bring out some actual personalities. Not good, but entertaining anyway. Why would you actually be arrogant about a choice in amplification? That doesn't suggest to me that you are serious or well-informed about your hobby. That shows me you are either a little crazy or have a hard time getting people to listen to you during your "off-the-computer" time. Those who are serious and well informed about their hobby, or well-informed in general, consider the strengths AND weakness of different approaches. There is certainly nothing wrong with having a personal preference for one approach, but advocating it while totally disregarding the positives of a different approach is, at best, ignorant.

[Deang]

Actually, trouble never begins until someone tries to make a case that one can reach live Symphonic levels in an auditorium that seats 6000 people, or can CLEANLY hit 110db peaks in an average size room -- with a 3 watt amplifier. I don't give a hoot what the advertising literature says for the Klipschorn -- there ain't no way.

I have no issue with anyone saying they think they are the best sounding things they've ever heard. This is purely subjective, and everyone certainly has a right to state as such if that is what they think.

Indy is fast approaching, and anyone wishing to bring a SET amp for the mixer Friday night is more than welcome to do so. I even promise to hold Craig and Paul at bay while the more serious audiophiles set up for the demonstration. Those of us lacking sophistication in the "audio arts" will sit down, shut up, and try not to make funny faces -- as the more astute show how to fill a room with realistic live levels using less than a watt.

[kev313]

Is the goal to have "good sound" - a subjective idea? Is it to reach "realistic live levels"? Does realistic live levels = good sound?

Who's to say? No one, really. And when it is my money on the line, it sure as hell won't be someone who evaluates their gear with the Boss.

[kev313]

As an aside, I don't really think that anyone here is lacking sophistication in the audio arts. Some, however, may just be generally lacking in sophistication.

[laurenc319]

hi Kev,

" have to admit that this topic is always entertaining, as it seems to bring out some actual personalities. Not good, but entertaining anyway. Why would you actually be arrogant about a choice in amplification? That doesn't suggest to me that you are serious or well-informed about your hobby. That shows me you are either a little crazy or have a hard time getting people to listen to you during your "off-the-computer" time. Those who are serious and well informed about their hobby, or well-informed in general, consider the strengths AND weakness of different approaches. There is certainly nothing wrong with having a personal preference for one approach, but advocating it while totally disregarding the positives of a different approach is, at best, ignorant. "

Well said. My other hobby is astronomy and I've spent a whole lot more on astro stuff then hi-fi stuff. The same things happens, A says this scope is better, B says A is a jerk and they both forgot the the enjoyment is in the looking or photographing using the equipment you have and like.

The same is true with audi0philes, the enjoyment is in listening to the music with the stuff YOU have and like. Some of us listen too much to the amps, speakers, cables and so on, and not enough to the music.

You like SETs and thats great. The music sounds great to you and that's enough. No one should never have to defend that.

Larry

[SilverSport]

Whilest sipping on a delightful Charazz, Tralphaz and I nearly aspirated our Beluga..."Lovee...a spot more of the grape, dear..."

You guys crack me up...and after todays day at work...I needed that...

Thanks,

Bill

[DizRotus]

Kev313 well put, until you had to go and disrespect AC/DC.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

On <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />5/1/2005 4:38:52 PM kev313 wrote:

ACDC . I think they suck at ANY level. My opinion, of course.

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Some who have at any time expressed a fondness for AC/DC (I take the Fifth) will feel that you have slandered their very DNA by having the temerity to share your candid opinion about that band.

[kev313]

I hear ya, Larry.

To be honest with you, I'm not so sure what the heck I'm defending. I will admit that I would have a different set-up if I listened to the type of music that Dean or Craig listen to.

Maybe I'm just promoting a more productive way to have these discussions.