fini Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 ---------------- On 5/5/2005 8:08:40 PM mike stehr wrote: . ---------------- Straight wire with gain, end view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 How much less is how much more? Edwin has a point. Can 3 watts satisfy? Anyone ready to part with their 2A3s can send them to me for proper disposal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 >Something can't be described as "straight wire with gain" unless it gives you at the very least -- a ruler flat frequency response, and you're not going to get that from something that has a damping factor hovering around 10, and no feedback. As someone once said, "Less is more until less is just less." No ones ears have a ruler flat freq resp. Our response all differs due to age and other factors. The only standard (purely IMOH) for reproduction is experience of the original performance compared to reproduction of the same. All else is abraction layer or layers. Coda: Awesome photo of the Cunningham/Radiotrons. Have about 6 in their orignal boxes. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r.cherry Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 dear edwinr, after all the fuss over the "BIG THREAD", why not buy what you want. as facinating as i find the debate, it's really all in your head. get what you want, don't stir the the pot just to see if it will still boil over. i can't believe you would start all over again after starting it "again". that last thread nearly made me want to sell my stereo and move to a place with no electricity. i think this is a cool place with some very helpful folks. personally i think the math speaks volumes. that is my opinion. i don't care who likes it. i do not come here to impress anyone or start some controvercial line of crap that few want to read. buy it, listen to it, ask questions if you have them, but let this one go away. sorry if i have stepped over the line all you venerable non-punctally challenged correct spelling pc friendly folks but i can't take another hate fest. i will watch and if it is me that is the ignorant one then i will go away. i have no problems there. i really do not think this needs to keep going on and on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 ---------------- On 5/5/2005 9:42:36 PM Mallette wrote: The only standard (purely IMOH) for reproduction is experience of the original performance compared to reproduction of the same. ---------------- I think everyone with any experience will agree that microphones have a vast range of sonic differences one to another, as big of a difference as different speakers. If a performance, captured through microphones and associated equipment, then treated by a mastering engineer, then played back through one of any number of speakers, ends up sounding exactly like the original performance, that's astounding. And that's assuming a perfect amplification chain, just for fun. Very likely you'll have one part of the chain fighting another part, one thing a little too much one way, another too much the opposite way. A slightly dull microphone and the mastering engineer will increase the highs with EQ, and then if your speakers are on the bright side, it will sound too bright and would have been better left without the EQ boost (for your system). Considering that microphones do not "hear" things as our ears do, and that there are such a wide range of microphones, I don't see how comparison of a recording to the original performance (which is in your memory only) can work in evaluating an amplifier, when the whole recording is compromised from the get-go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuNat Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 if i had the money, i would experiment with tubes, especially SET.. I beleive that i really need to hear them myself before i make a judgement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 ---------------- On 5/5/2005 10:06:39 PM NatGun wrote: if i had the money, i would experiment with tubes, especially SET.. I beleive that i really need to hear them myself before i make a judgement. ---------------- I knew before I ever heard it, by factual analysis, that SET wouldn't suffice, and this has subsequently been confirmed repeatedly by me in listening tests. But you are absolutely correct, it is much better to listen to equipment for yourself and decide for yourself. It's the only way to do it that makes sense when you are faced with such divergent opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 ---------------- On 5/5/2005 6:31:16 PM sunnysal wrote: Lao Tzu huh? try this Lao Tsu on for size: "The five colors blind the eye The five notes deafen the ear. The five flavors dull the taste. Racing and hunting madden the mind. Precious things lead one astray. Therefore, the sage is guided by what he feels and not by what he sees. He lets go of that and chooses this." can someone say AMEN! tony ---------------- Best post ever! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 ---------------- On 5/5/2005 7:30:54 PM mdeneen wrote: Unless one HAS a straight wire with gain, how does one make a comparison to it? Any invention should be as simple as it can be, and as complex as it must be, in order to serve the purpose. For any invention, such as an amplifier, there is a point of balance when less or more will both be harmful to the function. The enthusiasm for simplicity for it's own sake, is entirely unrelated to the physical reality of the thing itself. There are many "simple amplifiers" I've examined ( or built myself) which were useless by simply being too simple: falling far short of it's full intended purpose. The visual appearance of simplicity - few parts, for example - should not be confused with the aesthetic of simplicity. A plank with four crude wheels may be simple compared to a Honda Civic, but that simplicty translates into nothing useful for transportation. The hardest thing in engineering is hitting the balance point. mdeneen ---------------- Best post ever! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 ---------------- On 5/5/2005 8:08:40 PM mike stehr wrote: . ---------------- Best post ever! The grace of a dozen red-nosed reindeer is your gift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 ---------------- On 5/5/2005 9:02:49 PM fini wrote: ---------------- On 5/5/2005 8:08:40 PM mike stehr wrote: . ---------------- Straight wire with gain, end view. ---------------- Best post ever! You are so twisted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 ---------------- On 5/5/2005 10:05:28 PM Parrot wrote: ---------------- On 5/5/2005 9:42:36 PM Mallette wrote: The only standard (purely IMOH) for reproduction is experience of the original performance compared to reproduction of the same. ---------------- I think everyone with any experience will agree that microphones have a vast range of sonic differences one to another, as big of a difference as different speakers. If a performance, captured through microphones and associated equipment, then treated by a mastering engineer, then played back through one of any number of speakers, ends up sounding exactly like the original performance, that's astounding. And that's assuming a perfect amplification chain, just for fun. Very likely you'll have one part of the chain fighting another part, one thing a little too much one way, another too much the opposite way. A slightly dull microphone and the mastering engineer will increase the highs with EQ, and then if your speakers are on the bright side, it will sound too bright and would have been better left without the EQ boost (for your system). Considering that microphones do not "hear" things as our ears do, and that there are such a wide range of microphones, I don't see how comparison of a recording to the original performance (which is in your memory only) can work in evaluating an amplifier, when the whole recording is compromised from the get-go. ---------------- Best post ever! About time, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 ---------------- On 5/5/2005 10:14:06 PM Parrot wrote: ---------------- On 5/5/2005 10:06:39 PM NatGun wrote: if i had the money, i would experiment with tubes, especially SET.. I beleive that i really need to hear them myself before i make a judgement. ---------------- I knew before I ever heard it, by factual analysis, that SET wouldn't suffice, and this has subsequently been confirmed repeatedly by me in listening tests. But you are absolutely correct, it is much better to listen to equipment for yourself and decide for yourself. It's the only way to do it that makes sense when you are faced with such divergent opinions. ---------------- This one's going in my scrapbook. Best post ever! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 OK, seriously... Very nice and insightful posts here. I was quite surprised when I clicked. I expected a thread resembling a school bus running headlong into a big bix of kittens. Thank you all for surprising me. I'm still with Tony and the rest of the subjectivists on this. I know, big shock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 ---------------- On 5/5/2005 10:48:21 PM mike stehr wrote: . ---------------- Ok, make that two dozen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 "The only standard (purely IMOH) for reproduction is experience of the original performance compared to reproduction of the same." I agree with Paul. I've been told several times that microphones themselves "sound" different. On a completely different "note", different studios as well as concert halls all have their own particular "sound", and even varies greatly depending on where you're sitting in relationship to the performance. The "original performance" is like saying you like "the original taste of a hamburger" -- which is just as vague and doesn't really tell anyone much of anything. When we say "straight wire with gain", we are talking about the theoretical -- whether or not a preamp or amplifier has the ability to deliver the source signal in a completely unaltered and pure form. Sorry, but this is the complete antithesis of what a SET amp does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 ---------------- On 5/5/2005 10:49:45 PM ben. wrote: OK, seriously... Very nice and insightful posts here. I was quite surprised when I clicked. I expected a thread resembling a school bus running headlong into a big bix of kittens. Thank you all for surprising me. I'm still with Tony and the rest of the subjectivists on this. I know, big shock. ---------------- Well I'm pissed!! I didn't make the "Best Post Ever" Club .............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 Dean, good points. First of all, I should really hear a good and bad example of SET sometime so I can take my viewpoint out of the abstract a bit. But I don't know if I'd change my atttitude about the issue. I've experienced exactly what you describe as a matter of course. World class mics, world class rooms (not too many of those, naturally), world class musicians(well, to be honest, not enough of those, either)... It's mind-opening to take a fantastic sounding source, mic it with a Neumann U47, and listen to the character change with a movement of a few inches in the same great room. Is either better? Take that great Fender Twin and put in the bathroom rather than the studio & mic it up. Better? Worse? Right? Wrong? Situations like these make objective dictations on others' preference tough for me to bear. I'm happy to see posts like Craig's square waves way back when, though I probably raised some hell at some point over it. Now I may give in too easily on the facts, as I don't really care about the objective issues. Distortion? A little bit never hurt anyone, as long as it's the right kind, right? Anyway, I don't think I'll ultimately let quantitative issues get too much in the way of qualitative judgement. That is, if I can get preamp lust out of my blood and audition some different power scenarios. Well, a bit of a ramble, and some incomplete thoughts there that I might get slammed for but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 ---------------- On 12/2/2001 11:27:00 AM NOSValves wrote: My set is fine except for the touchy control pod ---------------- Best post ever! (Actual post, BTW!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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