customsteve01 Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 here here Amy I agree with you, as stated in a prior post I do not like pit bulls they are about the only dog that will make me nervous. But if you start out lawing this and that whare do you stop. what we need is more severe punishment and be consistant with the punishment. You know when they hung ya for stealing a horse or even less there were not as many crimes. I think alot of the people that do crimes have it better in prison than they did on the street and thats just not right. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted May 9, 2005 Author Share Posted May 9, 2005 Amy Amy Amy.... Then I sould be alowed to own a Siberian Tiger. It's just a big kitty after all. The problem is, why do innocent people have to pay the price for others stupidity? I don't feel that an idiot with a pit bull is any more likely to take more precautions with that dog no matter *WHAT* the pentalty is. An idiot is an idiot period! Amy, put your sons image in place of this other poor child that was the latest victim. Are you telling me that after you see your bloody, chewed up son you would feel the same way? CMon... That's B.S. You and I know it. Why wait? Why wait for it to happen and THEN the owner possibly get some form of criminal charge? There is no doubt in my mind that there is something fundimtally wrong with those dogs. I don't care what anyone says. There are laws in the car industry that help protect people, there are laws in the medical industry that protect people, there are laws in just about every facit of life to protect people. By your reasoning, we just do away with those laws as they are limiting our freedoms. Afterall, why shouldn't I be able to drive a poorly designed car that explodes on impact sending my body parts around in a 50 foot radius? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 These recent stories illustrate that things can go either way. It all depends on the individual dog: Good News: http://www.freep.com/news/latestnews/pm4093_20050509.htm Bad News: http://www.freep.com/news/locoak/maul7e_20050507.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 Amazing how such a simple concept become so complicated! I believe in individual responsibility. Be it with a car, a beer, a gun, a dog, a child, or just myself! And I dont need the left nor the right telling me what my values are or how I should behave short of my respecting the rights of others. And I sure dont need someone telling me if I have the right kind of speakers or dog or anything else! You believe it, live it! But leave me alone! And I will respect your right to be brilliant or an ***, as long as your actions do not impinge upon me. But you will be expected to be responsible for your decisions and subsequent actions, whatever they may be!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> A fact that I find amazing is that so many worry about what someone else might do, but they refuse to deal directly with it when it does impact them. But here many are more concerned with trashing others who have the audacity to like Bose a brand that I suspect is doing much better then another as far as successfully competing in the marketplace! As I have stated several times (a fact that must confuse several folks!), I dont like pit bulls. I would not have one. I personally wouldnt like to see one in my neighborhood. But I also believe that people have rights within the law. They also have responsibility. And I believe strongly in that responsibility. But I also do not respect so many who are so quick to social engineer and to impose the benefit of their enlightened values on others, be they of the left or the right. And there are far too many in Both camps only too ready to tell others how to live! And I AM humored by the selective attention of people who will selectively ignore greater problems to focus on a particular emotional issue in the name of saving society. And I find it ludicrous that one would propose that a person be put to death if their dog kills, but does not adopt the same standards for operating a car which causes MUCH greater societal damage then pit bulls! Selective attention? Heck, we dont even maintain that same standard when a PERSON kills another! So much for logical consistency! I dont support banning an animal from existence! Just as I dont support eliminating sharks based upon reported attacks or any other. But if a person chooses to have one, they are responsible. Period. And having grown up in a family of law enforcement ( with a father and brother in the Secret Service), may I suggest that law enforcement become more aggressive in enforcing the statutes regarding responsible possession of animals like pit bulls, and not simply waiting to respond AFTER a crime has been committed! Oh! If someone is (in my opinion) stupid enough to have a pit bull, they should be held accountable for maintaining it in a fashion that renders others safe. Period. I have personally had several Dobermans. And of course Everyone knows that they just live to kill. After all, they have seen all the movies! And I ran into self-righteous folks who lectured me on how irresponsible I was. As their kid ran amuck doing more damage then my totally trained and completely loving dog watched! But would he protect me or his family? Damned right! As would I! But it was MY responsibility to train him and to make sure that he was not exposed to compromising situations. And he lived indoors! And was trained NOT to bark except for certain desired times! (A much more interesting concept!) But lots of self-righteous folks would remove my right to possess him or a Shepard or a rotweiller or any other large breed. Despite the FACTS that show that these dogs are not the major source of attacks. And those that are, are the result of negligent owners! When I worked with Viacom as a Corporate Systems Engineer, I encountered far more problems from the damned little yappy terriers and other bedroom slipper that bark that waited for you to turn your back to bite! But dont try to confuse the experts who spent a grand total of 5 minutes watching some infotainment story on the news. Just like if someone in their religion wants to handle rattle snakes! Its none of my business, but they are responsible for assuring that others are not at risk. And its too bad that so few seem to adhere to that concept of freedom with responsibility. Be it dogs, cars, guns, speakers, or anything else! But I fear it may be a lost concept in a country where the vast majority, when confronted, thought the Constitution was the Communist Manifesto! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Amy Posted May 9, 2005 Moderators Share Posted May 9, 2005 m00n, moon, m00n, You CAN own a pet tiger. There are thousands of them in the US, if not 10s of thousands. Yes, an idiot is an idiot period. No argument there. But if I want to keep a pit bull, I should be able to. I just read an article today about two 8 year old girls found slain in a park north of Chicago. Wow, if one man in a thousand can do that, let's outlaw ALL MEN. And I KNEW you were going to play the Steven card. Won't work. I'm FAR more scared of the two retention ponds in my neighborhood, which claim at least one child's life per summer in the Indy area alone, or the cars zipping down my street about 40 feet from my front door, or Steven visiting a little friend in the neighborhood who's daddy happens to keep firearms under his bed or on a display wall with no case, or walking to school and being picked up by a child molester... No, I worry about things that are far more likely to happen. FAR more likely. I don't believe there is anything genetically wrong with those dogs. People used to think that about Dobermans. German Shepherds. Rotweillers. There's always a popular dog of the day to take all the blame for bad breeding and neglect. Outlaw the pitbull, and the next vicious dog that has been bred to be so will spring up in it's place. I have no problem with laws requiring people to keep a dog under control. Just as car companies have laws to keep car safety "under control" and all the other laws in place to keep things "under control." I'd like to see the numbers on how many of these dogs have attacked vs how many dogs are out there as pets. Give me a ratio. And I'll try to give you a ratio of men who are alive who are rapists, murders, pedophiles, domestic abusers, verbal abusers, neglectful parents... Sorry, I'm ranting now. Going on about my "outlaw all men" kick. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgb Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 Some of the small breeds are the nastiest MFs, but are easily punted when they attack. A neighbor of mine has four Papplions, which are like minirature Pomeranians. Those bastards NEVER stop barking and have attacked my dog, my wife and my son. The last time I kicked one of those little F*** so hard he'll think twice about opening his yap again. When the owner had the gaul to threaten to call the cops, I reminded her of the fact that she didn't have them on leashes, and isn't allowed to have more than two pets according to the townhome by-laws, not to mention just bit a 5 year old boy. Needless the say the owner heads straight inside the minute she sees me these days. Male chows are also known to attack with no warning and no provocation, and those things could take a pit bull apart. Very protective and very territorial. On the other hand, the nicest dog I ever had was a Chow-Collie female (the important part) mix who thought she was a 50 pound lap dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgb Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 In San Francisco a couple who had some odd breed dog (Canary Pisero?) are be charged (agian) with manslaughter charges when their two 100+ pound dogs killed a 40 year old woman who was an All-Ameican athlete. Not only the young, old or weak are in danger from some of these things. http://www.igorilla.com/gorilla/animal/2001/2001_SF_Dog_Death_LA_Story.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InFlux Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 My other neighbor has a Chiwawa (sp?). Annoying little dog. It used to bug one of the neighbors German Shepard constantly. Finally, one day the German Shepard had enough. When the Chiwawa came to the end of the driveway, and started into a yapping fit targeted at the German Shepard... yup, you guessed it... It was an ugly site... The Shepard lifted its leg and hosed down the little dog... LMAO! The moral of this story is what you may ask... The little Chiwawa never bothered the Shepard again and the two owners (who were watching) had a great laugh. So, I took a lesson from this. The neighbors pitbull will get a peperspray bath if he takes after us again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted May 9, 2005 Author Share Posted May 9, 2005 ---------------- On 5/9/2005 1:57:05 PM Amy Unger wrote: You CAN own a pet tiger. There are thousands of them in the US, if not 10s of thousands. ---------------- Yes, but not just any idiot can have one, there are very strict regulations. Perhaps this is what is needed rather than full extension of the breed, HOWEVER, that said, how do you control it? A Tigar is easy to spot, people know very well that a Tigar is out of teh norm. ---------------- On 5/9/2005 1:57:05 PM Amy Unger wrote: I just read an article today about two 8 year old girls found slain in a park north of Chicago. Wow, if one man in a thousand can do that, let's outlaw ALL MEN. ---------------- PleeeeeeeeEEEEEEEeeeeeeze. Don't even go there. Again, humans (normally, naturally) are born with natural instics to know better than to kill other humans. This breed of dog is not born with those natural instincs not. They are animals. You can take the animal out of the wild, but you can't take the wild out of the animal, especially if it was purposly bred into them. ---------------- On 5/9/2005 1:57:05 PM Amy Unger wrote: And I KNEW you were going to play the Steven card. ---------------- You know me all too well. Perhaps better than my own wife. Oh and BTW, it was me who brought up the Pit Bull subject last time as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 May I ask why folks who have been assaulted by the dogs are simply dreaming up ways of protecting themselves from FUTURE attacks, instead of pressing charges before they happen again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 Instead of pulling out some sensational story, why not look at long term statistics! http://www.fataldogattacks.com/ http://www.goodpooch.com/BSL/dogbiteepidemic.htm http://www.avma.org/pubhlth/dogbite/ http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Amy Posted May 9, 2005 Moderators Share Posted May 9, 2005 ---------------- On 5/9/2005 2:38:38 PM m00n wrote: Yes, but not just any idiot can have one, there are very strict regulations. Perhaps this is what is needed rather than full extension of the breed, HOWEVER, that said, how do you control it? A Tigar is easy to spot, people know very well that a Tigar is out of teh norm. BUT, it's still LEGAL. PleeeeeeeeEEEEEEEeeeeeeze. Don't even go there. Again, humans (normally, naturally) are born with natural instics to know better than to kill other humans. Are you SURE about that? Or do we need to resort back to an Evolution vs Creation thread again (NO!!!). I think Humans have wild instincts just as much as the domesticated dog. I'll introduce you to my ex just to prove it. JUST KIDDING! Oh and BTW, it was me who brought up the Pit Bull subject last time as well. Yes, I remember that very well. ---------------- Like I said though, outlawing the breed will just create room for sicko's to over-breed a new, perhaps more violent dog. It's not the answer. Just as outlawing guns aren't the answer. Education, restrictions, control..... I think it's the best we can do--with any kind of danger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted May 9, 2005 Author Share Posted May 9, 2005 ---------------- On 5/9/2005 2:38:58 PM dragonfyr wrote: May I ask why folks who have been assaulted by the dogs are simply dreaming up ways of protecting themselves from FUTURE attacks, instead of pressing charges before they happen again? ---------------- I was attacked and bitten by a German Sheppard guard dog when i was about 6. It was my grand fathers. Luckly he didn't do too much damage. Sunk he teeth in but no medical sugery or anything like that. He was one mean dog. Well... Better said, he liked very few people. We were visiting at the time. I recall being deathly afraid of the dog after that. Even though they kept him away from me after that, I have to ask, why should I have had to have been subject to that in the first place? Because people are stupid. So, excuse me if you guys think I'm a bit harsh, I've been on the receiving end of a dog attack. It messes with your head for a long time. I guarantee you, it can happen to anyone. It happen to these people. There are more but you get the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Amy Posted May 9, 2005 Moderators Share Posted May 9, 2005 I sympathize m00n, I really do, and now I think we're getting down to it. You could post pictures like that about any unfortunate accident, however. It plays with people's emotions over common sense quite easily. I'm afraid I will have to delete them though. Their graphic nature isn't for here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royster Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 ---------------- On 5/9/2005 1:48:13 PM dragonfyr wrote: Amazing how such a simple concept become so complicated! I believe in individual responsibility. Be it with a car, a beer, a gun, a dog, a child, or just myself! And I don’t need the left nor the right telling me what my values are or how I should behave short of my respecting the rights of others. And I sure don’t need someone telling me if I have the right kind of speakers or dog or anything else! You believe it, live it! But leave me alone! And I will respect your right to be brilliant or an ***, as long as your actions do not impinge upon me. But you will be expected to be responsible for your decisions and subsequent actions, whatever they may be!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> A fact that I find amazing is that so many worry about what someone else might do, but they refuse to deal directly with it when it does impact them. But here many are more concerned with trashing others who have the audacity to like Bose – a brand that I suspect is doing much better then another as far as successfully competing in the marketplace! As I have stated several times (a fact that must confuse several folks!), I don’t like pit bulls. I would not have one. I personally wouldn’t like to see one in my neighborhood. But I also believe that people have rights within the law. They also have responsibility. And I believe strongly in that responsibility. But I also do not respect so many who are so quick to social engineer and to impose the benefit of their enlightened values on others, be they of the left or the right. And there are far too many in Both camps only too ready to tell others how to live! And I AM humored by the selective attention of people who will selectively ignore greater problems to focus on a particular emotional issue in the name of saving society. And I find it ludicrous that one would propose that a person be put to death if their dog kills, but does not adopt the same standards for operating a car – which causes MUCH greater societal damage then pit bulls! Selective attention? Heck, we don’t even maintain that same standard when a PERSON kills another! So much for logical consistency! I don’t support banning an animal from existence! Just as I don’t support eliminating sharks based upon reported attacks or any other. But if a person chooses to have one, they are responsible. Period. And having grown up in a family of law enforcement ( with a father and brother in the Secret Service), may I suggest that law enforcement become more aggressive in enforcing the statutes regarding responsible possession of animals like pit bulls, and not simply waiting to respond AFTER a crime has been committed! Oh! If someone is (in my opinion) stupid enough to have a pit bull, they should be held accountable for maintaining it in a fashion that renders others safe. Period. I have personally had several Dobermans. And of course Everyone knows that they just live to kill. After all, they have seen all the movies! And I ran into self-righteous folks who lectured me on how irresponsible I was. As their kid ran amuck doing more damage then my totally trained and completely loving dog watched! But would he protect me or ‘his’ family? Damned right! As would I! But it was MY responsibility to train him and to make sure that he was not exposed to compromising situations. And he lived indoors! And was trained NOT to bark except for certain desired times! (A much more interesting concept!) But lots of self-righteous folks would remove my right to possess him or a Shepard or a rotweiller or any other large breed. Despite the FACTS that show that these dogs are not the major source of attacks. And those that are, are the result of negligent owners! When I worked with Viacom as a Corporate Systems Engineer, I encountered far more problems from the damned little yappy terriers and other ‘bedroom slipper that bark’ that waited for you to turn your back to bite! But don’t try to confuse the ‘experts’ who spent a grand total of 5 minutes watching some infotainment story on the news. Just like if someone in their religion wants to handle rattle snakes! It’s none of my business, but they are responsible for assuring that others are not at risk. And it’s too bad that so few seem to adhere to that concept of freedom with responsibility. Be it dogs, cars, guns, speakers, or anything else! But I fear it may be a lost concept in a country where the vast majority, when confronted, thought the Constitution was the Communist Manifesto! ---------------- As a police officer for more than 20 years, yes i would LOVE to be more agressive in enforcing laws on the books. There are several minor road blocks though, bill of rights, constitution just to name a few. I personaly have wrote "assalt with a deadly weapon" charges for a gang fight where one of the perps turned his dog (pit bull, in this case weapon) loose on others. Not just the scum bag gang bangers they were fighting with, but people walking in the park that happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. He was sent to the state club for 60 months by a jury of his peers. Also, here is a little news flash for some of you. Tigers, lions bears and a whole host of exotic amimals can be owned, with the proper permits. That being said, so can firearms, drugs, explosives, even nuclear waste and by products. Just because you CAN own something does not make it smart or prudent. And just because it is Legale today, does not mean that the law will always stand that way. I am supprised that a department and officer some where has not been sued for failing to see the danger in these clearly docile dogs. Pit bulls were bred to fight, rots were roman war dogs, but then again I am sure that socity is misinformed about them. Yes, there is far more complaints reguarding smaller dogs, muts ect. But the majority of these dog WERE NOT bred with the ONLY purpose of fighting, protection and when they attck, the results are in most cases less severe and have a lower motality rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 "...This breed of dog is not born with those natural instincs not. They are animals. You can take the animal out of the wild, but you can't take the wild out of the animal, especially if it was purposly bred into them." ------------------------------------- A dog is a domesticated animal. They are not what is called a "successful domesticated animal" in that they cannot reliably survive on their own in the wild. Only the cat comes close to that distinction - and only a small number of them. Look, I understand your concern, but enough with the sensational, emotion loaded examples and over generalizations. If you keep doing that, I will start pulling out stupid human tricks from our insane newscasts! I mean, just watch MaxX!! Now there are some truly inspired folks that evolution is just begging to eliminate! Heck, there are alot more humans who physically assault, murder, and abuse others too! And that is simply a tip of the iceberg regarding the novel things people can do! But you say we are different because we KNOW better! If that is the case, I can make a much better reasoned argument for people being banned - you know - 'the animal that thinks and knows better!'- then for the much fewer incident statistics when viewed over time for dogs posted above! Maybe if we threatened dogs with prisons featuring cable TV.... Heck, Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people then my or any of my neighbors dogs ever did! Of course, in another tangent...gee, you look around and their are crises everywhere! One of my pet flying squirrels did 'attack' a visiting friend! Actually, as it is bonded to people, he 'flies' to you as he loves to be with people, and he lept from the top of a bookshelf and scared the dickens out of a friend. After all, she had obviously seen the newscasts and National Geographic specials featuring the rare vampire flying squirrels that attack when you least expect it! And Everyone knows that they are deadly! (Actually its a game we play. He sits up on the top of the shelf and waits till I sit down and then leaps and lands on my head.....OK, its a dysfunctional game, but its still a game...) Maybe its time to ban deadly flying squirrels! AND stupid humans! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted May 9, 2005 Author Share Posted May 9, 2005 ---------------- On 5/9/2005 3:06:30 PM Amy Unger wrote: You could post pictures like that about any unfortunate accident, however. It plays with people's emotions over common sense quite easily. ---------------- Exactly why I posted them. People NEED to see those images. Images make people aware. Don't anyone come back and even do something like post images of gun shot wounds. That would be lame and you know it. Also, I would like to ensure to all pit bull owners on this forum, that issues are not of a personal nature against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royster Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 ---------------- On 5/9/2005 3:14:33 PM dragonfyr wrote: "...This breed of dog is not born with those natural instincs not. They are animals. You can take the animal out of the wild, but you can't take the wild out of the animal, especially if it was purposly bred into them." ------------------------------------- A dog is a domesticated animal. They are not what is called a "successful domesticated animal" in that they cannot reliably survive on their own in the wild. Only the cat comes close to that distinction - and only a small number of them. Look, I understand your concern, but enough with the sensational, emotion loaded examples and over generalizations. If you keep doing that, I will start pulling out stupid human tricks from our insane newscasts! I mean, just watch MaxX!! Now there are some truly inspired folks that evolution is just begging to eliminate! Heck, there are alot more humans who physically assault, murder, and abuse others too! And that is simply a tip of the iceberg regarding the novel things people can do! But you say we are different because we KNOW better! If that is the case, I can make a much better reasoned argument for people being banned - you know - 'the animal that thinks and knows better!' - then for the much fewer incident statistics when viewed over time for dogs posted above! Maybe if we threatened dogs with prisons featuring cable TV.... Heck, Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people then my or any of my neighbors dogs ever did! Of course, in another tangent...gee, you look around and their are crises everywhere! One of my pet flying squirrels did 'attack' a visiting friend! Actually, as it is bonded to people, he 'flies' to you as he loves to be with people, and he lept from the top of a bookshelf and scared the dickens out of a friend. After all, she had obviously seen the newscasts and National Geographic specials featuring the rare vampire flying squirrels that attack when you least expect it! And Everyone knows that they are deadly! (Actually its a game we play. He sits up on the top of the shelf and waits till I sit down and then leaps and lands on my head.....OK, its a dysfunctional game, but its still a game...) Maybe its time to ban deadly flying squirrels! AND stupid humans! ---------------- You can pull what ever you like. I am stating facts ONLY. Don't like them thats up to you. Banning people, that was done before, remember those docile folks the Nazis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 "I am supprised that a department and officer some where has not been sued for failing to see the danger in these clearly docile dogs." WOW!!!! My comment was with regards to enforcing the leash/control laws! NOT in simply removing 'potentially possible' problems that don't yet exist!!!!! Sorry, but that is EXACTLY why there ARE those silly impediments called a Bill of Rights and a Constitution! We have those principles for exactly the reason to protect the rest of us from those zealots with over active glands who would 'proactively' remove those undesireable elements from society! And to think that there are some who don't quite see the logic in the Nazi's actions, or in the myriad other ethnic cleansing efforts in various places at different times! I am not interested in seeing anyone locked up based on someone else's assessment of their potential to possibly do something! If thats a valid premise, then I can see ample reason for proactively locking up those wackos who would propose such a solution! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Amy Posted May 9, 2005 Moderators Share Posted May 9, 2005 ---------------- On 5/9/2005 3:17:11 PM m00n wrote: ---------------- On 5/9/2005 3:06:30 PM Amy Unger wrote: You could post pictures like that about any unfortunate accident, however. It plays with people's emotions over common sense quite easily. ---------------- Exactly why I posted them. People NEED to see those images. Images make people aware. Don't anyone come back and even do something like post images of gun shot wounds. That would be lame and you know it. Also, I would like to ensure to all pit bull owners on this forum, that issues are not of a personal nature against them. ---------------- People do not need to see images to come up with logical conclusions. It's just like showing pictures of abortions--it's purely for emotional shock value (and please don't start an abortion debate here--that was just an example). All I'm saying is it cannot be illegal for these dogs to exist. It's illogical and impossible, and it WON'T SOLVE THE PROBLEM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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