Help in Orlando w/my SVS!

[vanderrg]

I just received my replacement SVS 20-39pc+ (first one was DOA). While this one passes a test tone okay, it is not delivering what I would have expected given its reputation and power. I have been using an old Pioneer 100-watt sub and I never turned the gain on that old one up more than 1/4. To get similar bass out of this SVS I have to have the gain up halfway, and even then, while I can hear the bass, the experience is not at all what I expected.

I was expecting for this thing to really shake the walls and to be much better than my existing sub, but it just isn't there. I don't know what to do since technically the sub works...it passes a test tone and puts out bass, I just with I had some way to tell whether it should be putting out more or if my expectations are just too high. The fact that the first sub they sent out to me didn't work at all also makes me wary and I REALLY don't want to have to send another one back unless I'm confident this one is also broken.

Those with similar subs...how high do you have the gain on your sub?

I'm using the RF-7 Klipsch system and a Denon 3805 receiver.

Any advice would be helpful. If anyone lives in Orlando and knows how this SHOULD I'd love to have you listen to it and get your opinion on whether I should send it back...

Thanks,

Bob

[Drew in the desert]

Well, let's start with "How is the sub connected", and "How is your receiver configured for your sub/speakers"?

I own the 2039PC+ and there is definately something wrong if it isn't tossing shingles off the roof of your house.

[CECAA850]

Definately check your speaker configuration 1'st. Then calibrate your system with an SPL meter and disc like AVIA. There is no comparison between your old sub and the SVS. Once you get it dialed in you'll see what I mean.

[mrock]

Just this week, I hooked up an HSU VTF-3 MKII. I'm running it with Forte's all around. I have the volume on the sub sitting at 1.5(out of 6 or 7).

I also use the Denon 3805. The sub is connected out the "subwoofer" port, using a cable with RCA/component plugs. Al other speakers come back to the 3805.

I ran the Auto-EQ with a Denon mic, and have adjusted settings from there. The AutoEQ set the fronts volume at 6.

My sub is positioned to the left of my front soundstage, angled into a corner.

I have my Fronts configured as "large", center and rears as "small". The crossover is at 90hz. The LFE setting is at "Sub + Mains".

Please understand that I'm still tweaking things, but there's plenty of bass, even though the sub's volume is low on the their volume scale. Enough bass to shake the floor and everything else that's around. For comparision, I run my 3805 between -30 and -25. Any louder and I risk hearing loss(IMO).

I don't have an SPL meter. It's on the list.

It's not an SVS, but it's certainly putting out more bass than the JBL PSW1000 I was using last week.

[vanderrg]

Thanks for the posts-

I have it connected via the low-level input into the SVS from the subwoofer pre-out on the Denon. Same config as with the previou sub. I've tried both subs with two different receivers with the same results (the other receiver is a cheap-o Sony 90w x 6 receiver).

I'm definitely open to configuration alterations such as calibrating with an SPL meter and everything, but I don't see those making enough of a difference to explain what I've already experienced...in other words...

1. I've got both subs right there together in the same room (i.e. same level setting on the recevier, etc) and the SVS just isn't putting out more bass.

2. I have to turn the gain on the SVS up HIGHER for the same bass output as compared to the other sub

Part of my despair here is that the truth is that I have trouble being 100% sure that this sub is broken because it is putting out some bass, and I have never heard an SVS 20-39pc+ before for comparison. I hate the thought of calling SVS back AGAIN and telling them this sub is also defective...am I just that unlucky that they would send me two defective subs in a row? Their reputation is so much better than that. What are the odds of UPS breaking two in a row also?

Have you guys ever heard of a subwoofer being "partly" broken like this, where it plays bass but just at a much lower level than it should?

Thanks very much-

Bob

[bytor33]

If you haven't messed with the phase dial turn it to 0 at that seems to work best for most people. Out of the two svs's I've received both times the phase dials were set at 180 which offered much less bass to me than at 0.

[xcjago]

One possibility is that you aren't used to hearing good bass. Louder doesn't necessarily mean better. For example, a lot of rap songs have loads of bass in the 40-50hz range. Crappy subs tend to accentuate this range and make it sound even louder, whereas a true subwoofer will not do this and may seem quieter. Why don't you fire up some dvd movies like Titan AE, or Lord of the Rings, if you want to hear some real bass? I'm not trying to make fun of you or anything here, I just think that you may be used to listening to that 100-watt pioneer sub, and not be used to hearing really deep bass.

Also, the gain really doesn't mean anything. Some manufacturers make it so that gain increases the volume really fast to make it look like they have a lot of headroom, but they really don't.

[CECAA850]

Don't get hung up on the gain knob. Comparing gain knob positions on 2 dissimilar subs is absolutely worthless. Set the SVS a couple dB's higher than the mains and have a listen. The odds of SVS sending out 2 bad subs is remote at best (transportation damage.......that's another issue). When you get to this level of sub, setting phase and gain is not optional unless you want sub-par results. These are not plug and play units. I went through the same scenario with a PB12+2. I was so eager to find out what all the hype was about, I halfway set it up by ear and expected my house to come crashing down around me in a subsonic structural collapse. Disappointment was an understatement. I then took the time to set it up properly and all hell broke loose (like it was supposed to). Get a meter and a disc, set it up and get back with us. You're floundering in the dark till you do. You'll use it time and time again, everytime yo move a speaker or just want to tweak. Carl

[vanderrg]

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On 5/13/2005 1:20:09 PM xcjago wrote:

One possibility is that you aren't used to hearing good bass. Louder doesn't necessarily mean better. For example, a lot of rap songs have loads of bass in the 40-50hz range. Crappy subs tend to accentuate this range and make it sound even louder, whereas a true subwoofer will not do this and may seem quieter. Why don't you fire up some dvd movies like Titan AE, or Lord of the Rings, if you want to hear some real bass? I'm not trying to make fun of you or anything here, I just think that you may be used to listening to that 100-watt pioneer sub, and not be used to hearing really deep bass.

Also, the gain really doesn't mean anything. Some manufacturers make it so that gain increases the volume really fast to make it look like they have a lot of headroom, but they really don't.

----------------

That's a great point...and I think that's part of my uncertainty...I really haven't ever listened to a great sub in my house before.

With the new SVS I demo'd the depth charge scene in U571 and the Battle Scenes at the end of Episode II...oh and also the battle in Master and Commander. In none of those cases did anything in my house rattle (my old sub would make the figurines in my wife's china cabinet dance around).And again that's with the SVS gain halfway up...

It did occur to me that maybe the old sub had been really bad and had accentuated "bad" bass (it never sounded bad to me mind you-)...but what about all the people who talk about these SVS subs really rocking your home and making you fear for its structural integrity? Shouldn't this SVS be so much better that it is able to produce figurine-rattling GOOD bass instead?!?

Your point is very well-taken, and it may be that the sub works fine and you're 100% right... but if so I think I'd just as soon take my 100-watts of mediocre bass that really shakes my room and save the $850!

I just have a hard time believing, even with my untrained ear, that I wouldn't be able to tell a difference in output between my 100-watt Pioneer and the 525-watt SVS...

[vanderrg]

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On 5/13/2005 1:06:51 PM bytor33 wrote:

If you haven't messed with the phase dial turn it to 0 at that seems to work best for most people. Out of the two svs's I've received both times the phase dials were set at 180 which offered much less bass to me than at 0.

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thanks Bytor- I did try changing the phase and it didn't seem to change much at any setting...I have it at zero now.

[vanderrg]

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On 5/13/2005 1:34:37 PM CECAA850 wrote:

Don't get hung up on the gain knob. Comparing gain knob positions on 2 dissimilar subs is absolutely worthless. Set the SVS a couple dB's higher than the mains and have a listen. The odds of SVS sending out 2 bad subs is remote at best (transportation damage.......that's another issue). When you get to this level of sub, setting phase and gain is not optional unless you want sub-par results. These are not plug and play units. I went through the same scenario with a PB12+2. I was so eager to find out what all the hype was about, I halfway set it up by ear and expected my house to come crashing down around me in a subsonic structural collapse. Disappointment was an understatement. I then took the time to set it up properly and all hell broke loose (like it was supposed to). Get a meter and a disc, set it up and get back with us. You're floundering in the dark till you do. You'll use it time and time again, everytime yo move a speaker or just want to tweak. Carl

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Hearing you say that (about your experience with the PB12+2) reassures me a lot- even though I have my doubts I'll take your word for it and give it a go. I was meaning to buy an SPL meter anyway- I have an old copy of video essentials from 1997- would that work?

I will do what you say and keep my fingers cossed! Unfortunately I may not be able to do so for a few days.

[dragonfyr]

Regardless of how you had the 'other' sub configured, have you walked through the entire SVS setup procedure? While I may be incorrect, it sounds like you simply substituted the SVS and turned it up expecting "shingles to fall".

I would suggest going through the well detailed SVS setup procedure.

Also, may I ask what you expect from the sub? I am a little concerned that the measure of a functioning sub seems to be simply how loud it plays. If you are expecting to rearrange furniture due to the subs output, how loud are you listening to the rest of your system?

A well integrated sub will not jump out relative to the rest of the system/program material and a classic response in this situation is to suspect it is not working...

The unit is one capable of output exceeding MANY other comparable units. But simply to hear that it was hooked up and it isn't bringing the house down leaves just a few too many variables to make any determination of what might or might not be a problem.

And to make a comment in regards to the SPL levels... Personally I can adjust mine so that nothing will remain on the shelves for long and the cat hides! But frankly, while that's great for impressing kids who think 'thump' cars are hot, it provides little realism or quality playback. I realize I am speaking of an extreme, but I mention it as I wonder exactly what you are expecting. You seem to expect it to 'naturally' be louder then your other sub. At maximum gain settings? Or with regards to the same material? Properly integrated, unless your former sub was simply incapable of playing at 'proper' levels for seamless integration, the SPL should be essentially the same. Rather, the difference will be one of increased low frequency extension (provided the playback source HAS this component), smooth frequency response, and relatively low distortion. And these qualities tend to be more subtle then simply expecting this unit to play at 150dB on a setting of "1".

I am wondering if the unit has a problem or if simply your expectations may not be realistic. But in any case, I would suggest first going through the complete setup procedure thoroughly before trying to see how loud it will play back. Then issues can be more easily addressed. Also, assuming the complete setup procedure has been done, have you tried contacting SVS's tech support? I must admit that I have encountered few companies who make this service so readily available and exhibit such knowledgeable support...

Once correctly configured, I think you will be quite pleased with it's performance. Give the above a shot and let us know how it goes. Oh, and one need not have a SPL meter simply to preliminarily walk throught the setup. Simply adjust the gain until the sub's presence becomes apparent as a separate entity - and then turn it down a touch until it does NOT stand out.

[CECAA850]

Hearing you say that (about your experience with the PB12+2) reassures me a lot- even though I have my doubts I'll take your word for it and give it a go. I was meaning to buy an SPL meter anyway- I have an old copy of video essentials from 1997- would that work?

I will do what you say and keep my fingers cossed! Unfortunately I may not be able to do so for a few days.

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DVE is notorioius for having a bad sub calibration section. SVS recomends AVIA. When set up properly, your sub is more than capable of re-arranging your wall hangings.

[hwatkins]

Be patient - be sure to contact SVS if suggestions here don't work.

With the movies mentioned you should get a solid and clearly heard performance out of the 20-39. my 20-39 can rattle and can take a clearly strong fill path for music. I would imagine you will find the right mix and become a reference for SVS.

[vanderrg]

Dragonfyr:

Thanks for the level-headed view of this...yours and a couple of the other posts are giving me a new perspective. I'm not at home now but I plan on calibrating the sub correctly when I get home and going from there.

It's funny...maybe when I calibrate it the stuff in the house will rattle when it's turned up and I'll experience the bass that I expected...maybe I still won't and the reason is because my expectations are unrealistic (though I have trouble reconciling this completely with what I have read from others who gush about how thunderous and powerful their subs are when reproducing explosions and stuff)... Maybe the sub really is broken and all of you would say so in a second if you were at my house right now! Without another set of ears it's tough to know.

Either way your point is well taken about the role of a sub in a sound system. I'm not saying I want to have it turned up louder than it should be for everyday listening...but I'm worried because it seems that I don't have the option of clearing my shelves even if I wanted to (and I think I should be able to with this sub). At least so far (prior to proper calibration)...your cat would have nothing to fear at my house.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that calibration will set me free...

[CAS]

If your pioneer outperformed your SVS in those famous bass-laden scenes then something is definitely wrong. I don't think your expectations are too high if we can't do any better than a 100-watt pioneer throw away. In any case!

I am, however, at a loss as to what is causing you the trouble. Without a personal visit there are hundreds of things that could be amuck.

Do not give up, however.

[DrWho]

btw, there is absolutely nothing wrong with cranking the gain on the sub to 100%. I can pretty much guarantee that you aren't going to break anything in the process either (for some reason a lot of people fear turning the knobs all the way up).

Have you tried walking around the room while listening? You might notice that you get a lot more bass in the corners of the room. One of the main factors for your situation may be the downfiring configuration which has a different polar pattern than your original sub...which translates to a slightly different modal response. Room modes/standing waves can cause the bass to cancel itself out...a low distortion sub will then sound like it's not producing much sound, whereas your original high distortion sub isn't as effective at cancelling itself out (net result is the crappy distorted sub sounds louder). Moving the sub around can change your modal response and thus bring back the power of the sub.

So my first recommendation would be to find a better location for the sub. One method would be to put the sub at the listening position (or as close as possible) and then crawl around the room looking for a location where the bass sounds the best. Then put the sub in the spot you found and then sit back at the main listening position and go from there. For the sake of testing, you may want to put the sub in a location that you normally wouldn't go with just to see if it'll perform well.

[HatTrick66]

It changed my life.

Also, I have to admit my very technical way of setting it up involved taking it out of the box, connecting it, turning it up half way, and rockin'!

I'll double back with an SPL as soon as I get one.

Hang in there! It will change your life too!

[Spkrdctr]

Vanderg, this is normal with many subs (more than it should be). It seems the inputs are not what they should be from the factory. I live in Orlando and can come by your house and let you know what is going on. In essence, the Doctor will make a house call for a Klipschophile. It should blow away your old sub. E-mail me at Spkrdctr@aol.com and I'll be glad to help. But, you are correct, you are not getting what you should from the sub. I had a $1000 Infinity sub do that to me.....I wasn't happy. I know we can get your sub fixed!

[vanderrg]

Okay, good news. My home is rumbling appropriately; no cats to assess for terror but my 14-month-old periodically flees the room during explosions. My new sub is fine, and I feel very very much better. I have the sub that I was hoping for and the sense of relief is huge.

First off thanks to everyone who posted for me here...this forum is a great resource.

Basically I had a good telephone conversation with the Speaker Doctor and now I understand what was going on...it truly is a problem that was corrected with "calibration" (even a loose one without AVIA, which I ordered but hasn't arrived yet)...thanks to the doc for helping me to understand why it made sense for me to have to crank the gain on the sub up to 70% AND crank up the level in my receiver's level settings, and why my older sub sounded similar before I did.

I feel like an idiot, but in my defense there are concepts in play here that aren't necessarily intuitive and I can't help but wonder how many people out there are living with suboptimal sound because they don't have access (or don't realize they have access) to this kind of info on forums like this.

Anwyay thanks again!

Bob