Increasing bass on the Lascala's

[chuckears]

...I actually own Fortes, which are not at all bass-shy. I found the most natural sound, when I was running 2.1, was to be found by running the Fortes at full range, and setting the crossover on my subwoofer amp to between 40 and 45 Hz.

Looking at the LaScala specs, I would probably start around 75, so the LaScala owners' stated preference for 80 Hz does not sound far off.

I don't like to let the sub provide much above the 75 - 80 Hz range, because Klipsch speakers are so good at a flat response at least down to that range, and in the case of my Fortes, well below it.

[DrWho]

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On 6/3/2005 9:47:31 AM 3dzapper wrote:

With my Heresys, the sub is set at 60Hz and appears seamless. With the Khorns, the sub sounds contrived v the very fast horn loaded bass. When set to the 35Hz LF -3Db point of the Khorn, on accustic LPs the sub rarely fires. (Many if not most speakers are specified at the -10Db point of the bass. This is at the 28Hz point on the Khorn. I believe it is 35Hz for the LaScala but my recollection here may be off by a few Hz.)

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Well since the SW-15 is only good to 27Hz, it makes complete sense that it doesn't sound as good as the khorn. I know a lot of people talk about the "fast bass" of horns and all that, but I was reading a pdf that was talking about how normal direct radiators are more efficient for the same levels of distortion for the amount of space taken up. I think I read the pdf over at www.dbkeele.com but the site doesn't seem to be working at the moment. Anyways, my point is that use a sub that is comparible in size to the khorn and you should find fast solid bass that will go even lower. Once you hear it, there's no turning back.

I also just wanted to state that I listen to classic rock, metal, and some new age stuff as well...I think I can find something in every genre that goes really really low, but it's all in CDs (no LPs here). I believe that part of the RIAA EQ curve for LPs introduces a 30Hz high pass filter that basically cuts out all the subharmonics that would otherwise be present from the mechanical nature of the LP. If your turntable doesn't have it, I'm sure the mastering facility was using it when they were being carved. This of course would mean that all subharmonic material was stripped out and thus there's no need to be capable of reproducing it.

[PrestonTom]

There may be a couple of "80%" solutions that would not be very expensive. The frequencies you're discussing have very long wavelengths -very long. And No - a La Scala is not going to have the same low bass response as a K-Horn. The cabinet and geometry will not support that. Trying to get an equalizer or crossover to force the low frequencies out is certainly going accentuate distortion and other problems. So much for the neagtive.

On the positive side, a La Scala does have a pretty good bass response (let's not get greedy here). Some of the problems you may be having could relate to whether the bass you are hearing is smooth or not. Remember the wavelengths! Why not sample various locations for both the speaker and the listening chair. This will not get rid of the room acoustic-deficiencies; however, it may minimize some of them. The next step could be doing some research on Room Acoustics 101. Bass traps and foam (or even furniture, carpet/ pads, drapes) could help. No .... it won't lower the cabinet's response to very low frequency input. However, it could smooth out the response that you do have. Certainly it could rid of some "boominess" if that is a problem.

I know acoustics are not the sexy solutions (not like amps and other neat stuff). However, it should certainly be part of the solution. certainly it will help with other parts of the spectrum also.

As a note of caution, this can be tricky stuff, so please educate yourself ahead of time, since the various treatments and traps can get expensive (or at least upset the heck out of your girlfriend).

Good luck,

-Tom

[colterphoto1]

Double up on bass bins!

[colterphoto1]

I'd like to ask for clarification on the question. Is it the lack of LOW bass as in HT use? Or is the problem the lack of bass in the BALANCE of the LS that you notice? (as in 'the horns are just too loud')

The solution to each dilema is different. If the Bass doesn't go low enought, some eq might be the solution, but a subwoofer might be called for.

If the problem is lack of perceived bass in relation to the rest of the cabinet, a crossover mod, positioning, or biamping might take care of the balance.

Michael- now owner of Industrial LS stacks with double bass bins, and one pair of nice BR home models.

[gonzp]

Actually I don't think that I have noticed that the Scalas were bass shy. I am researching new crossover networks for the speakers, and I was just curious if the new networks would help out in the bass dept. or if purchasing a subwoofer was the ticket. I still have no idea which crossover networks will suit my requirements. I have been closly following another thread here on the fourm where all 3 of the resident experts on x-overs have been discusing their philosophies. It is a quite informative thread to follow but, I am afraid I am more confused as to which network I want. I would consider doing business with all 3 men as they have been quite helpful to me over emails. I will take enough cash with me to Indy to purchase the networks, I just hope that I can make up my mind between now and then!!

Happy listening, Patrick

[IndyKlipschFan]

Trey will have his La Scalas with the THX amp and 2 subs...

IMO, that will do it, friday night at the Holiday Inn.

It is a WONDERFUL matchup!

[scriven]

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On 6/1/2005 10:45:53 AM gonzp wrote:

I have heard that the Lascalas are lacking in the lower bass regions, when compared to the Cornwalls and the K-Horns. Can upgrading the crossover networks remedy this or is a sub the only way to achieve lower bass from the scalas. Thanks Patrick

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Patrick,

The answer to your original post is no, the crossover networks will not change how low the speaker goes. That is a function of the driver and the cabinet design.

Since in your follow up post you said "Actually I don't think that I have noticed that the Scalas were bass shy" I am wondering if you are noticing a problem or are worried that others think there is a problem?

Changing the crossover or "balancing" network will affect the balance between the 3 drivers in the speaker so Michael's question goes directly to the point. If you think that the mids/highs are overpowering the bass then you should consider that you want to be able to adjust that relationship in your nice shinny new crossover. If you just want deeper bass then look at subs. (Of course, the two are not mutually exclusive! )

[gonzp]

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On 6/6/2005 12:26:26 AM scriven wrote:

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On 6/1/2005 10:45:53 AM gonzp wrote:

I have heard that the Lascalas are lacking in the lower bass regions, when compared to the Cornwalls and the K-Horns. Can upgrading the crossover networks remedy this or is a sub the only way to achieve lower bass from the scalas. Thanks Patrick

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Patrick,

The answer to your original post is no, the crossover networks will not change how low the speaker goes. That is a function of the driver and the cabinet design.

Since in your follow up post you said "Actually I don't think that I have noticed that the Scalas were bass shy" I am wondering if you are noticing a problem or are worried that others think there is a problem?

Changing the crossover or "balancing" network will affect the balance between the 3 drivers in the speaker so Michael's question goes directly to the point. If you think that the mids/highs are overpowering the bass then you should consider that you want to be able to adjust that relationship in your nice shinny new crossover. If you just want deeper bass then look at subs. (Of course, the two are not mutually exclusive!

)

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Thank you for the replies. I don't believe that I am worried about what others perceive to be a problem. I believe after many hours of lurking and reading other threads about crossover networks, and listening to what I am hearing on my speakers, I think that the highs and midrange are over powering the bass. Also I read where other Lascala owners say that a sub or subs really bring out the best of the Lascalas. Again thank you all for the kind replies.

Patrick

[dragonfyr]

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On 6/1/2005 5:07:23 PM chuckears wrote:

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On 6/1/2005 4:14:00 PM 3dzapper wrote:

The lowest note on a bass guitar is 41Hz. There is not much information recorded in music, except maybe the fundamental of a kettle drum or 64' and 32' organ pedals (16-32HZ)which no commonly avaliable speaker can reproduce and if they do it is most likely the harmonics not the fundamental anyhow. To do that would require a kilowatt.

Rick

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I am uncertain as to how this applies to the pursuit of faithful music reproduction; because, while it is true that the fundamentals below 30-40 Hz are few and far between, it is reproduction of the room resonances (sub-harmonics) that is crucial to re-creating the performance.

I was blown away by this when I introduced a subwoofer to my Fortes (no slouches in the bass department, them). I could almost see the room in which the recording was taking place; there was a distinct immediacy to the sound that the reproduction of even the below-20 Hz material (and it's there, no doubt about it!) makes possible.

If the front end of your audio chain is not allowing for these differences to be heard, then that would be something that might be due for an upgrade.

This is not to say that LaScala and Belle speakers sound bad, or incomplete, or that their owners have to have a subwoofer to enjoy them. But to say that there is nothing to be gained by reproducing the lowest possible information from better recordings is a mis-statement, and I have heard the difference very dramatically with my own choices.

One of my dream 2-channel configurations, if I were not allowed corners (thus allowing for the mighty K-Horn) would consist of a pair of LaScalas, each with its own SVS PB12-Ultra picking up the slack.

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Just a couple of observations...

First, the now very common 5 string bass's low B is 31 Hz. (Also in Beethoven's works) And as far as the now all too common synthesized bass pedals and bass keyboards employed(ala Peter Gabriel, et. al.)...hmmm.

Second, I am a bit mystified by so many thinking that so many recordings capture accurate imaging and localization information based on the true phase relationships of the instruments and performers in the room! The idea that it is reproduction of the room resonances (sub-harmonics) that is crucial to re-creating the performance" is a wonderful thought, but it is simply not generally the case! The reality is, that it is generally, at best, wishful thinking! And most engineers have gone to great trouble in their attempts to minimize such elements!

In fact, except for rare occasions, the close micing techniques are designed to eliminate as much of the room effects as possible. But that is not to say that some of the old effects techniques for reverb, etc. (hot rooms, down the hall delays, other room micing, etc. etc. etc.) can't be used, but with the advancement of much of the modern effects generators, they are also on the decline. And fewer still are aware of how many times the snare is not even a drum, but simply wave shaped triggered white noise (a rather ingenious technique!).

One needs to define what is being recorded and how it is being done! But, to focus on anything but classical and to think that the recording is not done primarily with close mic'ing techniques, direct inputs, (and perhaps a few ambient mics) for blended effects, is to ignore the realities of modern recording.

And the so-called imaging and localization of the instruments is a function of the mix engineer, and NOT their true location in the room! Heck, half of the musicians are not even IN the same room! And those that are, most are not in the same room at the same time! And for which dub????? The idea of accurate imaging thus becomes a quantum puzzle worthy of the best TOE model! And I am not sure how they sync click tracks in the various parallel dimensional planes!

Thus, my simple point is that the Haas effect has more to do with perceived imaging then the accurate capture of relative ambient phase information of the actual players in most recordings. And this becomes even more true in multi-channel recording. The fact is that the actual phase relationships of the real event - if indeed it ever existed as a real coherent simultaneous event - is NOT captured and used, except in rare techniques such as the amazing ITE (In The Ear) recordings that maintain the actual phase relationships of the pinnae (more specifically, the pressure zone of the ear drum) that accurately captures the spatial cues without any necessary encoding or decoding. But to my knowledge only the IMAX folks have explored the possibilities of using this commercially. Very few events are captured live with the predominate source being a central ambient microphone or array! And even most live events employ closer micing techniques that are not designed to capture the room effects!

So the next time you are impressed by imaging or localization, more often then not, you should thank the mix engineer! And whatever you do, don't look inside a modern recording studio to discover the nifty techniques that are used! It's not like the high school choir with one MS microphone configuration in the center of the choir!

Enjoy!

[edwinr]

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On 6/6/2005 5:59:06 AM dragonfyr wrote:

The idea that it is reproduction of the room resonances (sub-harmonics) that is crucial to re-creating the performance" is a wonderful thought, but it is simply not generally the case! The reality is, that it is generally, at best, wishful thinking! And most engineers have gone to great trouble in their attempts to minimize such elements!

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Too true. I believe our goal should be to eliminate as much of the room from the equation as possible. The mighty Klipschorn, and it's siblings, are more successful in this regard, by virtue of the mid/treble horn design - reducing the room effects because the horns are more directional than other designs.

In relation to the LaScala's perceived bass deficiency, obviously these comments refer to bass extension, not bass quantity. Down to 50 hertz, the LaScala can go toe to toe with all-comers. Rather than tinkering with the excellent balance of this design, I reckon a high quality subwoofer would do the trick.

[pauln]

Patrick,

All this talk about LaScalas and bass needs to be taken into context with how you hear music, play music, and what you think music really is in the first place.

Some folks on this site have gained a lot of my respect in the past only to blow it by identifying an artist or peice of music that I can't stand. I mean really can't stand to the point of realizing that we humans live in really different musical spaces. I no longer trust ANYONE's opinion about anything music related.

It is a useful exercise to gather the field of opinions and regard others' arguments and supporting logic, but don't make decisions based upon anyones' preferences - decide for yourself. LaScalas may satisfy you completely, or you may need to suppliment the bass.

In my case, I would never use a sub with my LaScalas. I listen only to music and only to vinyl so there is really nothing below the music to listen to, in fact to increase this area might cause rumble problems with the turntable. I think the bass of my LaScalas is perfect after listeniing to Heresys for the last 30 years. But don't trust me, know thyself.

(Let us know what you discover and decide)

Paul

[Marvel]

I know that after visiting John Albright's place, I really wouldn't need any subs with the LS. He has them, but turned them off for me while I was there. Perhaps for HT use.

Marvel

[chuckears]

The thing is; there are not a lot of recordings that reproduce the room in the way I have described, but with the ones that do, and with the ability to then experience that by faithfully reproducing as much of the frequency range in these recordings as possible, the result is, IMHO, a revelatory event, where you are placed at the performance.

And, with the exception of reproducing the unfortunate effect of turntable rumble (I will NOT get into an analogue vs. digital debate here), having that extra depth of response available is not going to hurt when it isn't there.

...but when it is, and your equipment is up to it, you will hopefully appreciate it, and be brought nearly to tears as I have with some of the more moving music I have heard.

chuckears

[D-MAN]

Just an interesting note (ha - PUN INTENDED!), the low C on an organ is 31.5 Hz. Presumably a pipe organ, but even without amplification and synth-type effects, there is musical life below 40Hz...there are alot of weird drums that also go that low...

Now finding a piece of music that specifically goes that low is something else...

DM

[sfogg]

"The thing is; there are not a lot of recordings that reproduce the room in the way I have described, but with the ones that do, and with the ability to then experience that by faithfully reproducing as much of the frequency range in these recordings as possible, the result is, IMHO, a revelatory event, where you are placed at the performance."

That is from stereo bass with different timing between the two channels such that you get interaural time differences betweeen your two ears. In a hall this happens naturally from the large size and different distances to each side wall.

In a home it is a lot rarer though it can be artifically created. David Griesinger (of Lexicon) has done a lot of research in this area and he has a mode to create this in Lexicon processors.

See:

http://world.std.com/~griesngr/spac4.pdf

and:

http://world.std.com/~griesngr/multichan.pdf

For example.

Shawn

[colterphoto1]

I'm with you Marvel.

Simply put, with 'normal' musical sources, and a properly tuned system in decent room, most listeners would find that additional bass support probably not needed with LS.

For HT, definitely sub required with LS, as with most other speakers, even the LARGE variety.

imho, too much low frequency information while listening to 'normal' musical sources on LS can bring out subharmonics, rumble, and room noise that is decidedly non-musical. I have heard this on some systems.

Michael

[jheis]

Try adding a pair of Cornwalls.

Worked for me ... of course, I went the other way (already had the Cornwalls and added a pair of La Scalas) Never noticed that either was lacking for bass. Too busy enjoying what I have.

Had an older (relatively speaking) eastern european-type plumber at the house the other day. I always have some jazz playing in the background - anyway, the guy couldn't leave without quizing me about my speakers. Ya never know who you're going to convert.

James

[edwinr]

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On 6/6/2005 11:42:42 AM pauln wrote:

In my case, I would never use a sub with my LaScalas. I listen only to music and only to vinyl so there is really nothing below the music to listen to, in fact to increase this area might cause rumble problems with the turntable. I think the bass of my LaScalas is perfect after listeniing to Heresys for the last 30 years. But don't trust me, know thyself.

(Let us know what you discover and decide)

Paul

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Well said, Paul. The La Scala bass is fine. It just might lack in ultimate extension, but the quality is there. Sometime we can have too much of a good thing. Like bass, for instance. Adding a more extended bass may introduce room related problems that weren't evident before. But then again... maybe not.

[homemade]

How many db down is the LaScala at 40hz? Probably 10-15db. It definitely needs some kind of bass reinforcement! My homebuilt khorns were always lacking in bass and had to use eq. to bring up the bottom octave to decent levels to be happy with them and finally bought a $50 Maaudio 12inch car subwoofer that fit perfectly into a 3.7 cu ft. enclosure I had-added a 250 watt parts express plate amp and can't believe the bass extension! The speaker specs out as -3db at 27hz. I cross it over at 40hz and with the LaScalla probably would want to bump that up slightly. 35hz - 40hz sounds pretty low to me but you've got to get the level up to midrange levels to enjoy that. I couldn't imagine living with a LaScala without a sub! Theoreticallly an eq. with max boost in the 30-50hz range might give acceptable results and should be your first and cheapest remedy and if that doesn't do it add a sub. Most of the music I listen to (from classical, organ, country, pop, rock, etc. all beneifits from a sub that gives the 40hz range a boost. Perhaps I just like the 40hz bump a little!