steve Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 OK, OK I've played with all my new gear, and I'm getting more frustrated by the minute.I thought I'd write a post explaining what's going on,and see if anyone here can offer some advice. This post will probably jump around a bit, as I'll write things down as I remember them..here goes. I just bought two new pieces of equipment, a McIntosh C2200 tube preamp, and a McIntosh MC275 tube amp. These replaced a Scott 130 preamp, and an Assemblage SET300B amp. That combo sounded really good, but I always have "upgrade" fever like many, and decided to "get it over with" and lay down some big bucks so I would be set..hopefully for good. (We always think that don't we??) The Ah! CD player and my 83 KHorns remain constant. Let me digress before getting into the problem. I have always complained about lack of bass, blaming my music room. Artto has graciously answered a lot of my questions, and the gist of the matter is that I needed bass traps, for i really had no high frequency problems..but I really lacked bass..therefore, I always wanted preamps with tone controls..hence the Mac replacing the Scott. OK..that said.. I ordered some LERND bass traps from Auralex..and I spent a few bucks on that! So now, let's start out when I first got the new gear, piece by piece. First thing to arrive was the preamp. I was pretty jazzed, after all the reviews I read on the C2200..so I hooked it up, replacing the Scott. First thing I noticed, was that there seemed to be a few "frequencies" missing. I thought that was strange, and fooled with the tone controls, but they actually didn't seem to change things a whole bunch, as the Scott had (or the Adcom GFP565 before that did also) so i shrugged it off as the tubes needing to burn in (for those who believe in that) or maybe I needed those bass treatments, as the frequencies were shifting about in the room. Speaking of which, I still had some pretty lame bass..but I was used to that. OK, now I get the bass traps..I hang them up, starting where Artto suggested i.e. where the bass was bunched up, listening while i walked around the room. Hmmm..that seemed to give me more bass in my listening position. Nice. I was kinda pleased, and couldn't wait to get my 75 watt tube amp to replace my 8 watt SET, knowing I'd have even more bass. So then the new MC275 arrived, I couldn't wait for the weekend. I hooked it up, and even though I thought I'd need some "burn in" time, it sounded really good. Maybe everything was a little "rolled off" at the top, but all in all it sounded pretty darned good, and the bass was there, not overpowering or anything, but a lot better than I had experienced before. I caught myself leaving certain CDs on the player longer, listening to tracks I had never heard, as I was caught up in the music, not the equipment. I was missing a little bit of detail the SET had, but not to the extent that I wanted to give up that bass I had missed. I was elated..impressed..and couldn't wait for subsequent music nights! Heck, I might spend a few hours out there on my DAYS off, in addition to my nights off! Then, after a few listening sessions..it started sounding "muffled"..bear in mind, I had actually been listening with the tone controls OUT of the system, something i thought I'd never do! I heard about many of you doing this, but i always used them, and felt I needed them..until the McIntosh gear..I thought I knew what you guys were talking about! ..anyway.. I then compared a CD to an LP..same album/cut etc. And i thought the LP sounded cleaner, brighter..which was 180 out from any like comparison I had made with previous preamp/amp configurations. In fact, 90 percent of my CD/LP comparisons showed the same thing! I was flabbergasted! I thought something was wrong with the preamp. I emailed McIntosh, and got a very prompt answer from their tech guy. In fact, we emailed back and forth thru the weekend, and I'm sure he was convinced that I was nuts before it was all over. (see my thread "C2200 strangeness) I even took a tapestry down that was hanging behind the listening position, and that seemed to "brighten" up things on the CD side..so I thought I had solved the "muffled" problem..and sat back believing things were gonna get better..well you guessed it.. they weren't! In fact, they have continued to get worse this week. First off..I have always complained about the lack of bass. Now, there's so much bass, it's overwhelming! The tone controls are still set flat (well, out of the system)..I have moved the bass traps around, and finally eliminated them altogether, making the room like it was before, and there's still too much bass! Blaming the preamp, I took another forum member's advice (he has the same Mac gear and has no complaints at all!) and hooked up the CD player to the MC275 directly..and it sounds exactly the same! First I used the voltage inputs on the amp as a volume control..then the CDs built in volume control..and finally a stand alone passive volume control..all got the same results. Too much bass/not enough detail. Every listening session got worse. OK, that eliminated the preamp. Ah-HAH! I say..must be the difference between the amps! I still have my flea powered SET, so I throw that back in the mix. Where the heck did all this bass come from?? I could never coax that out from this amp! So I do the same thing with the SET..go direct from the CD player to the amp..same thing!! Not much distinction AT ALL between the amps! I still can't get over the bass!! So as a last ditch effort, I swap in 2 other CD players, a Sony and an Adcom. The results are the same (even though I definitely can hear more detail in the AH!) I swap cables all over the place..the bass is still overwhelming..little detail in the top end. I move my listening position..I even try the bass traps one more time. They make it worse..focusing the bass in my face. I'm done..I've had it. So here's where I ask for help/suggestions. First off..why is the bass so alive now, even with the SET?! Like I said, I bypassed the preamp with both amps..and it sounds the same on both when bypassed completely, or hooked to the C2200 with the tone controls bypassed..it isn't the preamp. Bear in mind I've never done this before. But when I had the Scott, the loudness was always on (trying to get more bass) and the bass was set at about 2 o'clock..and there was NEVER any bass like this!! If I try to add treble, or more bass for that matter now, just to see the results..it sounds distorted..and that's with either amp. So..do you think the crossovers on my 83 KHorns are gone?? All speakers are working, as I've listened to them individually. But I have to admit, the detail is gone. I even tried Alan Parsons "On Air", and if you have ever heard it, there's lots of detail..and it sounded muddled tonight. I used to hear weird nuances I had never heard before..that's all gone now. What I used to hear is buried. Maybe my hearing is gone. Actually, the first few days with this combo and bass traps were bliss. I could listen to it louder, longer etc. with NO listener's fatigue. That was a few weeks ago. After yesterday and today my ears hurt. And they usually hurt from LOW frequencies. Last time I felt this way was when I had an 18 inch DefTech sub in the system..I thought I had an ear infection! Now, again it sounds like I have a sub going on full blast all the time! The highs just aren't there like they used to be. So..hence my frustration. First it was buyer's remorse, thinking i had screwed up. But with taking both pieces out of the system, I know better. Are the KHorns to blame?? Or can I not see the forest for the trees?? Thank you all for any suggestions. I am, really at wit's end. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironwoods Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 Hey Steve, maybe those caps in yer '83 K-horns can no longer be considered as "mint", and thus are not capping correctly? [O] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 Welcome to the wonderful world of vintage tube gear, now that you dropped all that cash on purchasing them. Now you need to save more money to have them reworked and brought into the 21st century, I learned the hard way with my recent purchase of some MC-30's. No more used vintage for me. If I do it again I am getting NEW stuff like a Peach and some VRD's that won't need to be rebuilt from top to bottom to be listenable. Changing the old caps or networks in the '83's will help but is not going to remedy the tired old tube gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 Dude, this tube gear is BRAND NEW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 I think that his Mac's are new and not vintage. Which networks are you using in your '83 Khorns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 OOps duped it and lost my four 4's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 It's NEW! Oh Boy, Good luck then I have no explanation for you. Wanna play poker I have four 4's in my hand - post count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 It sounds like you lost your tweeters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 Steve, Did you do anything in back of the Khorns? Last night, as normal before I go up to bed, I sat in "the spot" to relax and listen for a bit. The first song's solos were all in the right and the bassist sounded like he was standing to the left. No problem right? When the second tune came on with the same stage, I knew something was wrong. Going up to the horns revealed no mids from the left speaker. Somehow I had managed to loose connection to the squaker. Things like open strings and left hand piano were present but the right hand was missing. Any possibility of something like that happening when you hooked up your new gear? Did you replace the speaker wires? I have one set of wires that has too much upper mid/HF detail compared to my "regular" Home Depot 14 Ga wire. I mean unlistenable brightness (to me, in my room, etc.). I have to admit that you gave me a chuckle. After complaining of no bass a few weeks ago to complaints of too much bass today. I guess it shows that none of us are ever satisfied, except Allan, thus we keep the Hi-Fi industry in business.[] I say Allan 'cause he has been running the same Cornwall, MC-30, Thorens system almost from birth. BTW, IMO, you owe your '83s a pair of ALKs with an ALtenuator. If you want to hear new details in your music, you won't be disappointed. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 "ALttenuator" -- I like that. Someone else came up with ALtrix for his horn, and I thought that was pretty good too. I like the sound of the K-77 being run full out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 14, 2005 Share Posted October 14, 2005 Stick a towel in your Mid horn and confirm the tweeters are working. I would check all the connections on the crossovers and tighten them. I bet the old Khorn got relaxed after years with the lower powered amps when you put some power to them that said " What is this" [] You'd be amazed how hard it is to hear the tweater without covering up the mid horn. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted October 14, 2005 Author Share Posted October 14, 2005 I'm pretty sure that all speakers are working but I will double check..if so I may just have to contact Al K and invest in some new crossovers..I have type AK and I understand they were some of the poorest? I still can't figure out where the bass came from when I hook the 300B up direct..and how there's really no difference between the Mac 275 or the 300B..that's why I wondered if the crossovers are kaput.. Rick, I haven't changed cables..I still use Audioquest Indigo speaker wires, have for years. I did check my connections, but the AKs are soldered in..no contact strip with screws like other models. I gotta leave town today, but will post my findings when I return. Thanx all for your input! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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