Al K. done good, REAL GOOD

[Marvel]

Dennis,

Those quotes are all interesting. Dana's drivers use a polyester

diaphragm (I'm sure you knew that), where most would assume the

titanium for high power use.

The 4591 only goes up to 9Khz (I'm sure you knew that as well).

I guess one just has to trust their own ears eventually. We'll see if

Dana likes his after a few weeks of listening or if it is just the 'new

and different' that he likes. []

Bruce

[D-MAN]

Well, day 2 and I'm still impressed. I know there are better drivers out there, but for the money these are completely worth the $320 retail each. That's my point, not that they are going to be the cat's meow for everyone, although I suspect that most of us with more limited audio experiences have not actually heard anything as good (so far) from commercial (i.e., affordable) horns. Someday, hopefully, I may be able to afford TAD's. But for the money, these are going to be very hard to beat.

Bruce - yes, I'm definitely aware of the "new and different" thing happening, but these were a definite improvement from the first moment they were turned on as compared to a set of drivers that cost slightly more.

So it was a "bargain", sort of. At least "as good" performance for slightly less. However, I immediately preferred the effects over the "old" set. The question I ask myself is "will I go back?" - most likely not. These have not only the edge in imaging and soundstaging, and definitely in overall dynamic capability, but it means one horn instead of two (which is less work and is eventually cheaper in the long run). {edit} A naked wooden horn is sort of what I'm thinking about now...all it takes is money!

Also consider that I am "invested" on this set with the custom crossover and time and effort, so naturally that gives me a bias, too. So yes, only time will tell. But I'm all excited about my little economic venture, and am therefore inclined to post my thoughts and feelings about it. Take it with a grain of salt, kids.

Khorn use?

=========

I had some thoughts about using them on a Khorn, and I have some important points to make about that.

1) I am running them unbaffled, un-enclosed and turned slightly off axis

to the listening position. Neither of these approaches could be possible

if you are going to run them IN a Khorn top cabinet. So take note!

They have a certain quality in the midrange that I find just delicious which I have not really experienced before, and it is particularily noticable on female vocalists. It is a "smoothness" and a particular "solidity" that is not only convincing as a localized "image", but it's so dang "PURE" sounding. I can't describe the effect any better than that; it has to be heard to be appreciated. It is absolutely ADDICTING! It is worth every penny I spent on these (to me) in order to get this out of the speakers. It was an unexpected bonus, if you will. That's what I'm so nuts about.

Let me put it this way: if you walked into an audio store and heard these, you'd want them. Hands down, that's a no brainer.

DM

[Marvel]

Having the one horn on top looks a lot better too. Unless you are impressing the ladies with your horns.

Bruce

[D-MAN]

It seems to me that women don't like to see horn mouths.

What's up with that?

We're all better off not going there!

DM[]

[dubai2000]

D-Man,

interesting thread. Would the BMS also work with Al's type 'A' network?

It would be good to know if the changes you perceive are basically due

to the different crossovers or if the main responsibility lies with

those drivers.

Wolfram

[D-MAN]

Wolfram, I consider the two (new crossover and driver set) basically inseparable due to the ES on the woofer/mid point, which in its turn effects the upper drivers, of course.

The midrange/tweeter combination is then a 18db slope crossover at 6000 Hz, specifically designed for the respective drivers of the BMS. The BMS is rated down to 300Hz, so that is good.

My previous (stock) ES600T did not really like the new woofer being that it tested out at 10 Ohms. The K33E would be about 6 Ohms in the horn, and that's what the ALK expects to see. The recommended crossover point for the BMS mid/tweeter is 6300Hz. The ALK is lower (around 5K?), and the BMS tweeter impedance is quite high lower down. So there's one problem.

However, that is a question that Al Klappenberger could answer authoritatively.

DM

[Al Klappenberger]

Wolfram,

I wouldn't try using my Universal netwrok on the BMS driver. There is too may difference between what that network was designed for and what the load presented by the BMS drivers would present. The impedance of the tweeter section of the BMS is 13.5 Ohms in parallel with 0.44 mHy. And the tweeter must be attenuated, not the squawker section. It's a bad idea.

The network I built to operate the two sections of the BMS was at 6000 Hz and is 2nd order on both filters. This provides a different insertion phase then my Universal which is 2nd and 3rd order. It will have 90 degrees more phse shift. It's total guess work how it would act on that driver!

Al K.

[dubai2000]

Al,

thanks a lot for the clarification.

Wolfram

[D-MAN]

4 day review: I still find the differences startling when I turn these things on.

I probably mentioned this before, but the dynamic range seems to be more "extreme" in both directions than I am used to, that is, softer (further away) is softer and increases in dynamics are more loud. It's sort of a roller coaster ride.

Some very familiar cds, too. The "new" dynamism changes the soundstage "layout" dramatically. So things are somewhat "new" sounding even for familiar recordings. I wouldn't say that I am hearing things that I haven't heard before, but rather, I'm hearing familiar things in a "different" way. I'm suffering from spacial disorientation! Things end up further away or closer than I expect! Various effects "fly around" the soundstage as intended (evidently) that I didn't really notice before, and now are quite demanding attention-wise.

The presentation is different to the point that I am somewhat disturbed - my remembered presentations are "lost" but the expectation remains and it is a little unnerving to be expecting something (a cymbal or such) and it's now there BUT DIFFERENT either timbrally and/or spatially speaking. My remembered "map" of the soundstage is out the window. I suppose that I should listen to new material, but when making a comparison, one usually tries to compare that which one is familiar with. And all of that is now blown out of the water. Would I change back - no - this is clearly better - but the effect on me is WEIRD!

I haven't adjusted yet. It is strange how one's expectations are dependent on memory, and how important that memory is to the listening experience.

I'm wondering about the effect of "first hearing"; what you remember when you hear some system (any system) for the first time, and the impression it leaves you with and how one recalls that "sound". I'm sure that others would find the presentation quite impressive, if they are unfamiliar with the system and heard it for the first time.

I wonder how much I am "breaking in" to these rather than the other way around.

DM

[mikebse2a3]

D-Man said:

I probably mentioned this before, but the dynamic range seems to be more "extreme" in both directions than I am used to, that is, softer (further away) is softer and increases in dynamics are more loud. It's sort of a roller coaster ride.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I would love to see a TDS or ETF measurement of the new Mid/High driver with the Crossover you are using. It wouldn't surprise me if the feeling of increased dynamics is a result of the the Mid and High driver working together so well because of the coaxial build and the potential for them being in proper Time Alignment.

Have you ever noticed that an improvement in clarity is also noticed along with an improvement in dynamics? I have noticed this in Electronics and Speakers and if you think about it this should be the result we would perceive as Transients happen in the proper Time and the Quite passages are more defined by Transients ending when they should.

mike[]

[Deang]

Hmmm, interesting post.

You would love a TDS or ETF measurement -- I would just love to hear it.

[mikebse2a3]

Hmmm, interesting post.

You would love a TDS or ETF measurement -- I would just love to hear it.

YES! DeanG

I would love to hear it also!!

mike[]

[D-MAN]

Have you ever noticed that an improvement in clarity is also noticed along with an improvement in dynamics? I have noticed this in Electronics and Speakers and if you think about it this should be the result we would perceive as Transients happen in the proper Time and the Quite passages are more defined by Transients ending when they should.

mike[]

Well, my impression is that the soundstage is indeed larger as part of the dynamics effect. Yes, there is an increase in clarity ; it makes vocalists seem more "real". It is like shining a better light on them - if I can go as far as saying perhaps their "edges" are better defined, if that makes any sense. I think it can be summed up as having more detail information available.

The efficiency seems to be slightly increased too. These get mighty loud at very low wattage (I think I mentioned that before). It is definitely an effect of increased dynamic capability. It makes dynamic changes really stand out.

Timing issues really have not been a concern for me; I can't hear a delay even if I wanted to. They seem extremely quick (possibly another effect of increased dynamic capability) and "timely". I have no impression of what I would call a "lag" whatsoever.

This is all subjective opinion, of course.

I listened to Dianna Krall "When I Look in Your Eyes" cd as a test for sibilance and standup bass "boominess" - if setup wrong, you will get both of these in spades - and it was very listenable without either of these problems. Another test for sibilance would be virtually anything by Michael McDonald.

Another cd that I used for test purposes was Herbie Hancock's "Gershwin's World". It covers the gambit from percussion to vocals , jazz ensembles and strings. Nicely recorded.

DM

[Al Klappenberger]

Dana,

Be very careful about listeing for sibilance. It is usually recorded on CDs and is a real thing. Compare what you hear from the speakers to a good set of headphones right out of the CD player. That comparison may suprise you!

Al K.

[D-MAN]

Yes, and it is on the Diana Krall cd, too.

But sibilance should not be exagerated - which has been know to occur with a misaligned set of horns! I know that most of you have heard that before! It shouldn't stick out (glare).

I've found that once the horns are aligned for a balanced generalization of the soundstage, it is useful to check for aberations; ESPECIALLY in the sibilance region, and the bass region for "boominess". It will verify whether the setup is actually what I would call "well-balanced" or not. Room treatments used in cooperation with horn alignment is usually the problem.

DM

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Would the 4591 be a big improvement over the stock K Horn midrage (K55) driver (provided you had a horn that accepts a 2" throat)?

Chris

Edit: I have a set of Altec 511B's. Would the 4591 be a better driver on these than the K55's using this adapter:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-321

[D-MAN]

Unless you have a 2" throat horn, I wouldn't recommend that, although I really like the BMS driver.

The issue of horn throat size will come into play, I'm afraid; it is fine to use a smaller driver throat size in a larger horn throat, but not the other way around due to increased throat distortion (throat overload). Basically, that occurs by trying to push more "air" through the horn throat than it can effectively handle (it's a constriction).

I'm working under the premise that the 511B is a 1.25" throat.

DM

[tigerwoodKhorns]

What about with a correctly sized horn? I have JBL Baby Cheek Tweeters and plan on using ESN's. I was going to go with the Altec 511's but may use a different horn if I can see an improvement over the K55's.

Chris

PS: Its funny that we love the K Horn so much but in the end only wind up using the bass bin and K33 driver.

[D-MAN]

Then I would have to say that it is going to be a very noticable improvement. You will indeed like it very much.

The dynamic range is going to get you (X-3 on the ES midrange autoformer). The JBL tweet is an excellent choice. These will be a fine setup for you as I also have plenty of listening-time with the 2404H.

DM

[tigerwoodKhorns]

It looks like you are running a K Horn bass bin. How are you crossing it over at 600hz? I though that it was only good to about 400 hz.