So that's what 200 watts sounds like....

[pauln]

From what you describe, that is NOT what 200 watts should sounds like. The first time I heard Heresys was at a dealer who played them VERY LOUD with a huge 300w/ch monster SS rack mount something. The signal what very clean and strong - they sounded fine! What you are describing about these amps makes me wonder if they were really 200 watts?

[Duke Spinner]

Yea, Maxie ...

what Exactly are ya playin' with ...??

[J.4knee]

I think what Max is experiencing here is a simple well known equation for good nay great sound. Quality source + quality amplification + quality speakers = Great sound. Pure and simple. Do all the various topologies offer their own subtle differences and strengths? Oh yeah but if you feed quality speakers a good quality signal they will produce.

[dubai2000]

Max,

yes, sometimes switching gear can be quite revealing......or simply adding a different flavour to a familiar dish.

I am with Jim on this one (and have experienced something similar when

I added the SVS to my chain.....and not only with SET amps []) and I am sure you experienced something similar with your former REL/Heresy combo.

BTW: what happend to the sub? If it's still around you should really give it a try with your current speakers.

Today I had the chance to listen to a locally made tube amp producing

something like 90 watts. It powered a pair of LS and it certainly

sounded very clean and precise (preamp was a McIntosh C20). The

designer told me that it took him quite some time to find the right

balance between clarity and being too bright. Did he succeed? Well, it

surely depends on the listening room and on personal taste. While I

really enoyed the punch and clarity of the amp, I found it too hard

sounding once things got loud......like let's party[]. We played a

few CDs and when I came home it was quite interesting to listen to one

of the CDs at home. There was no denying that the SET amp sounded

softer, but having the sub revealed that for all the punch that I

experienced there, those deeper bass notes simply sounded fuller in my

place. I also could hear more of the recording venue here at home -

something I always value highly. Was I impressed by the LS/tube amp at

the person's place? Yes, the clarity and power of the sound had some

attraction, but I am not sure if I'd really want to listen like this

for good.

I know you are an experienced listener, but don't rush things. Simply

listen to the ss amp for a while and wait what happens......especially

once you play tubes again[].

Wolfram

[TheEAR]

From what you describe, that is NOT what 200 watts should sounds like. The first time I heard Heresys was at a dealer who played them VERY LOUD with a huge 300w/ch monster SS rack mount something. The signal what very clean and strong - they sounded fine! What you are describing about these amps makes me wonder if they were really 200 watts?

They are some unknown home made XYZ brand ...200 watts..PMPO. LOL Made by Dr Kazipoweris Petroampocliporis who uses a secret output transformers bathing in garlic sauce.

They sound thick and brassy as soon as your giant Klipsch speakers demand anything over 10W!

Just poking Max and his rusty dusty amps []

[maxg]

Well Guys - all I can say is that there are many roads that lead to Rome. I have no doubt, for example, that I could achieve a very similar effect to the one I have now at home with a smaller tube amp and a sub. Sadly the sub I had - the REL Strata 3 - is now long gone - sold with the Heresies. In a way I am pleased about that -the match between those 2 units was staggeringly good and it would have been a shame to see them divorced.

OK - back to the amp in question. In order to monitor their run in I setup my Stax headphones on the main system and used them as a reference sound.

Whilst on Friday the sound from the amps was hard, harsh and subject to dramatic change as the volume rose this effect has all but disappeared over the course of the weekend.

The top end of the sound is now much as it was with the tubes and very much akin to the Stax top end. The power now comes in much more smoothly and the additional bass gels better with the overall sound than earlier on.

What I now realize is that the emphasis within the music has moved. Previously the lead instrument was rather more emphasized than the supporting orchestra (or band). Now those positions have not exactly switched - but the whole is definitely more to the fore.

This does not make it either better or worse IMHO - just different and the question becomes which version does the listener prefer?

Last night I listened again to the Tchaikovsky Violin and the violin harshness has gone. I think, other than for the additional emphasis on orchestra and the stronger bass I, and indeed any other listener, would be hard pushed to tell the 2 amps apart in a blind listening session.

My final test - late last night - was my favorite piece of all time - Pier Gynt. This is the most musical and gentle of musical companions, when presented well, that lulls the listener into a state of tranquility quite magical. It was with transistors as it was with tubes.

Now before I announce which way I am intending to go I want to stress something here. I am not, in any way recommending my path to anyone else - especially anyone with Klipsch speakers. My own speakers - whilst sonically not dissimilar to the Klipsch sound have major differences from them technically - not the least of which is a much lower sensitivety (91 dB) and a paper midrange driver. What works for these speakers WILL NOT necessarily be the same as what works for either a Klipsch 2 way or traditional horn loaded 3 way speaker.

I could not, in any way shape or form, use a low power SET amp, for example, with these speakers and get away with it - with or without a sub. It was no accident that my previous amps were 70 wpc with a massive power supply and humungous capacitance. My speakers are neither sensitive, nor a particularly easy load (impedance doesnt drop that far but my god it goes up in places). Moving the woofers (even though they are a miserly 8 inches) takes a powerful amp. What would invert a Heresy woofer seems just sufficient to control my own.

Anyway - enough of the caveats - decision tomorrow. Tonight's test - Sheherazade - with SWMBO present.

[stan krajewski]

Max,

Thanks for the objectivity. Looking forward to reading your decision.

Everything is a work in progress.

[pauln]

Tchaikovsky Violin? I love that so much I can't imagine it sounding bad on anything.

[maxg]

Paul,

Everything is relative - it does not, of course, sound bad and in actual fact no longer sounds worse IMO than the tubes.

Last night's Sheherazade made my decision for me.

I am an SS kind of guy for the time being!!!

[colterphoto1]

Very interesting thread. I like Wolframs comments about (paraphrasing), a change might always be perceived as an improvement once the ears get used to the new sonic signature.

I liken it to moving from my old country home with very live sound out of my CW's in a long room, to city life with the same setup in a wide array in a room with wood paneling and very padded carpet. I don't know at the time which was better, but enjoyed the change. Perhaps there's some listening psychology at work here.

If I were you Max, knowing something of your listening habits, I would really hesitate to unload the tubes. You listen very critically sometimes at very low volumes due to the brood, but sometimes also a concert levels. Space and budget notwithstanding, methinks you needs both amps in his arsenal to satisfy your audio quest. Seriously, it's just one little amp, can't you squeeze it in there somewhere?

And I love the name of your audio dealer, its so Mediterranean, but we wouldn't expect any different.

fwiw, I have Final Cut on LP, gorgeous recording. One of my faves in rock. Max, I finally set up my LP collection this weekend, it pales to your library, but I've about 6 meteres of shelving of some of the finest classic rock around. Gary is helping me expand he jazz/classical side of my library. I turned our young DrWho onto the magic of vinyl, it was fun watching the eyes of a fledgling sound engineer light up at appling the Discwasher to his first LP.

Michael

[maxg]

Michael,

If you have 6 metres of rock records I think that does not pale in comparison to my current vinyl library. That sounds like a lot of vinyl to me.

Yes - in the ideal world keeping both amps would be best. I would, if we are following this through to its logical conclusion actually run 2 systems with Klipsch Horns on a tube amp and my current setup as it is - such is the stuff of dreams.

Right now - can't be done. No room. We are planning to move in the not too distant future - a whole new world of audio options might open up and who knows - 2 systems might even become a reality.

Right now - I have to choose one or other. As I have said now that the SS amp has settled down it is largely indistinguishable from the tube amp at lower volumes. At higher volumes I would say it wins out - there is something magical about effortless power and 200 watts - to me, bearing in mind where I have come from, is effortless power.

I am certainly not going to suffer going down this route for now. Were there other ways of possibly getting there? Certainly, but, I had this amp on hand and at a price that is more than reasonable.

Our whole hobby is a compromise - this option no more nor less than any other. It just happens to be the one I am happy to make right now.

And as someone else on this thread pointed out - thank God for my tagline! I live it so often.

[Cal Blacksmith]

Congrats on your discovery of a clean higher power SS amp that you are happy with!

May I recomend that if you are moving soon, see if your dealer could

"rent" you some shelf space in the back room, he works with you in

other ways after all and this would gaurantee you returning to his

shop![]

[maxg]

OK. An update:

Yesterday I told Tsakiridis to go ahead and sell my Powerhouse if he can. The SS amp is now playing its socks off and at low volumes it is every bit the match to my old system.

I guess that means that the important part of my sonic flavour is coming from the pre-amp (or higher up the chain) and that the amp mererly plays what it gets.

The benefits of this amp over the old one are in the main practical ones. Zero maintenance. On all the time - no waiting for warm up etc. It also takes up slightly less space that the old unit. T'aint pretty but I put it to the side of my rack (it wont fit on the rack - non standard height) and placed a large wooden statue of the top. This way it looks like a pedestal for the statue and is not too hard on the eye (little green light in front notwithstanding).

There is one sonic benefit - it goes VERY loud (by my standards). I have not, as yet, explored the nether reaches of the volume control on the pre-amp but at about 1 o'clock the room is pounding with no sign of distortion even on the most dynamic of my recordings (around 30 dB range).

Historically I have always described my system as good for classical but only moderate for everything else. Whilst it is not all that important for me I think the everything else has gained more than somewhat. Rock seems to hit home pretty hard now - and even punchy Jazz sessions seem a bit more live. If I were to describe the change I would say it feels like I have gained speed in the attack of the music. It just seems that much punchier. I am not sure why this should be - could be just more power - more dynamic range - genuinely don't know.

That's all for now.

[stan krajewski]

I too went from tubes to SS. For years I bought and sold a number of

tube and SS amps before hitting the audioreview site and looking at

what other people (like me, not magazine reviewers) thought was a

good amp. The Odyssey Stratos stood out and fit my budget. The 20 year

warranty and 150wpc were strong selling points.

After 2 years with the Odyssey amp, I have no urge to sell. I

don't think any of my other amps lasted more than 6 months.

[cjgeraci]

This has been a refreshing thread, especially with respect to a reasoned discussion on yet another controversial topic.

Congrats, Max on discovering what a quality 200 watt ss amp can do. Better sounding solid state mates well with Klipsch (read musical at low volumes and non-glaring at higher volumes).

I'm just lucky enough to be able to run either a 200 watt solid state or nice tubes on my Heritage at the push of a button (love them Niles switchers.....) Both sound great.

Carl.

[colterphoto1]

That's why we love ya Max, always an open mind and an open heart. Congrats on your new odyssey and a very well written thread. I noticed that nowhere in these writings did anyone attack another forum member.

No LP's were destroyed in the making of this thread.....

Michael

[D-MAN]

Max, I would agree with your assessment on the pre-amp setting the overall "tone" of the system. A good clean power amp should be "transparent", that is, it imparts no "flavor" itself.

On preamps: I've found that SS preamps tend to get rather expensive to get a high enough quality to compete with a nice tube preamp (MO). They might even be touchier on interconnects, where tube preamps don't seem to care as much.

DM

[Cal Blacksmith]

I also think the pre-amp is more of a factor than the amp. The first

thing I upgraded after getting my Fort'e s was the amp. I went to the

amp I have now. There was an improvement in sound but there was a much

bigger sound improvement when I upgraded my Pre-amp. Then the rest of

the chain. I do think I could put quality SS in the amp section and I

would probably be happy. My amp (though tube) when reviewed, was said

to be more like a SS amp than a slow syrupy tube unit. I attribute this

to the modern design and being a NEW tube amp, over a worn out unit.

[dbflash]

Max,

i think its great you are happy.

i am using tubes at the moment and i have been think about rolling my parasound (205w) into my system just to see what it sounds like.

i am very happy with my setup, but i'll never know unless i try.

if i am reading this right it also didn't cost an arm and a leg to get to where your are now.

i have to know did the buzz go away when you swapped amds and is the amp back in the same spot as the tube amp.

again i think its great that you are happy.

danny

[NOSValves]

Max,

I have forgotten what your using for speakers?

Craig