K Horns in bad corners. . .how bad?

[Jeff Matthews]

Btw, an improperly sealed khorn that is still in the corner should see very little if any LF losses, but will most certainly have a large suckout in the 300Hz region.

So what exactly is a properly sealed khorn?

[tidmack]

Everyone is bringing up really valid points. I've been able to hear Klipschorns several times and I remember liking them even more than LaScalas. . .But I haven't been able to A/B them with LaScalas. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Doc, Mark, and Craig bring up some excellent ideas with the Ultras (I kept referring to them as the THX subs). A pair of Ultras with LaScalas may be right up my alley. But as Craig and others said, I wont know about Klipschorns unless I try them.

I think Im going to give the mighty Horns a try, but from the pics, does my "door" corner look like it'll be ok? The other one will be fine for sure. If I can at least match the sound of my LaScalas for now, I'm certain I'll go with the Klipschorns. It'll give me more incentive to someday have a room designed for K horns And as X Man said: if the K horns arent for me, I can always sell.

Tid

[PrestonTom]

Tid,

I appreciate your dilemma; however, I there is another perspective.

Many of the folks are looking somewhat blindly at the cutoff frequencies for the various cabinets. Let me caution that the speaker response is not simply the output of the speaker, rather it is the output of "speaker-room " when viewed as a system. This is understood by all for the case of the K-Horn which does best in sealed corner. However, it does not stop there. It will also be true for the La Scala, a sub, etc. The output you will get will also be a function of room geometry, room treatment, location of cabinets and listening chair etc. So the difficulties one might have in placing a K-Horn will also occur when placing a La Scala etc.

One really needs to consider the cabinet as part of a system where the other half is room acoustics.

Incidentally, regarding the use of a sub, in my view one of the remarkable things about a K-Horn is that the deep bass is very clean sounding. I have yet to hear that from a sub. Sure, you can get a sub to put out plenty of low frequency energy, but I have yet to hear a sub generate the wonderfully accurate sound that a K-Horn produces. This is my bias.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[Jeff Matthews]

if the K horns arent for me, I can always sell. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Tid

Tid, I hope you'll be buying used if you're willing to buy them and find out they're not for you.

Bad: Buy $7500+/Sell $2000

Good: Buy $2000/Sell $2000

[DrWho]

A properly sealed khorn is one where the tailboard makes an airtight seal with the corner (many guys are using pipe insulation to compensate for minor flaws in the walls).

Incidentally, regarding the use of a sub, in my view one of the remarkable things about a K-Horn is that the deep bass is very clean sounding. I have yet to hear that from a sub. Sure, you can get a sub to put out plenty of low frequency energy, but I have yet to hear a sub generate the wonderfully accurate sound that a K-Horn produces. This is my bias.

Have you heard the Ultra2 subs? []

I just wanted to comment that the bass bin is also not free from vibration, which requires that the side walls be very very rigid (otherwise it gets amplified even more). I know Dean claims that this is yet one more reason to support the use of false corners...which makes sense because it really allows for extra damping of the entire enclosure.

In regards to how horns work....in the ideal world we have a flare rate and an overall length of the horn, which serves two purposes. It reduces the volume of air that the driver sees (kinda like the difference between freestanding and cornerloading) and there are also diffraction effects as the wave follows along the edges of the horn...which serves to project the sound forward, again reducing the amount of air the driver needs to move. To think of it another way, a horn is just a focusing device...turning what would be extraneous off-axis sound into useful on-axis sound.

oops, time for class....more on horn physics later []

[Jeff Matthews]

A properly sealed khorn is one where the tailboard makes an airtight seal with the corner (many guys are using pipe insulation to compensate for minor flaws in the walls).

... and what if you're about an inch or 1.5 inches out from the corner? Is it THAT serious?

[NOSValves]

Have you heard the Ultra2 subs? []

Yup at the Indy Pilgrimage with Lascalas. They sounded great for brief moments then a few prominent people that attended just couldn't keep thier hands of the level controls for the subs.

Craig

[NOSValves]

A properly sealed khorn is one where the tailboard makes an airtight seal with the corner (many guys are using pipe insulation to compensate for minor flaws in the walls).

... and what if you're about an inch or 1.5 inches out from the corner? Is it THAT serious?

The bass will have this very disconnected type sound []

[triode]

One of the things that I have noticed, is that most folks get 'hung' up on the Khorn and Corner issue. I think a larger issue is the size of the room. Khorns need a lot of room to breathe. Big room = Great sound. Small room = poor sound.

If you tried Khorns, and you didn't like them, your room was probably too small. A good room would be about 25 feet by 30 feet. Having great corners in a room that is 12 feet by 16 feet probably won't cut it!

I have heard Khorns in a smaller room (with perfect corners) and they don't sound near as good as mine in a larger room with compromised corners.

[NOSValves]

La Scala sound great if you enjoy the sound of a sawzall cutting through a boiler tube []

Did you change your last name too BH?

[NOSValves]

One of the things that I have noticed, is that most folks get 'hung' up on the Khorn and Corner issue. I think a larger issue is the size of the room. Khorns need a lot of room to breathe. Big room = Great sound. Small room = poor sound.

If you tried Khorns, and you didn't like them, your room was probably too small. A good room would be about 25 feet by 30 feet. Having great corners in a room that is 12 feet by 16 feet probably won't cut it!

I have heard Khorns in a smaller room (with perfect corners) and they don't sound near as good as mine in a larger room with compromised corners.

This is part of my point! I agree completely. I've heard Khorns in Paul Loebers house and they will drop your jaw! I've heard them in much smaller rooms with and without perfect corners and while they still sounded good I would rather have Lascalas, Cornwalls or a number of other speakers. I like the horns shooting just outside my ears merging together just behind my head not 6' in front of me.

Craig

[Frzninvt]

"One of the things that I have noticed, is that most folks get 'hung' up on the Khorn and Corner issue. I think a larger issue is the size of the room. Khorns need a lot of room to breathe. Big room = Great sound. Small room = poor sound.

If you tried Khorns, and you didn't like them, your room was probably too small. A good room would be about 25 feet by 30 feet. Having great corners in a room that is 12 feet by 16 feet probably won't cut it!"

This is Bullshit!

[mark1101]

I agree with Dr. Who on his point that LaScalas with subs will at least keep up with the Khorns. In fact I would say it should outdo them.

The difference between a Khorn and a LaScala is not a whole THX Ultra sub. It is less than that. If you have LaScalas and 2 Ultras, man.....I can't imagine a pair of Khorns making anywhere's near that much bass.

Plus you have virtually unlimited adjustability. You can move the LaScalas anywhere, since you are not restricted to corners. Same with the subs. Locate them anywhere. Then you can adjust the levels of the subs on top of that.

If you have any doubts about the room this has to be the way to go. You have next to zero flexibility with a Khorn unless you add false corners.

What you have with a Khorn is people's word that this is all BS and in some situations with odd rooms it can still sound good....which I definitely don't doubt.

[NOSValves]

"One of the things that I have noticed, is that most folks get 'hung' up on the Khorn and Corner issue. I think a larger issue is the size of the room. Khorns need a lot of room to breathe. Big room = Great sound. Small room = poor sound.

If you tried Khorns, and you didn't like them, your room was probably too small. A good room would be about 25 feet by 30 feet. Having great corners in a room that is 12 feet by 16 feet probably won't cut it!"

This is Bullshit!

Please explain why this is bullshit?

[Piranha]

"One of the things that I have noticed, is that most folks get 'hung' up on the Khorn and Corner issue. I think a larger issue is the size of the room. Khorns need a lot of room to breathe. Big room = Great sound. Small room = poor sound.

If you tried Khorns, and you didn't like them, your room was probably too small. A good room would be about 25 feet by 30 feet. Having great corners in a room that is 12 feet by 16 feet probably won't cut it!"

This is Bullshit!

So this means Khorns can and will never sound good in an apartment or condominium. But then I already knew that.

Please explain why this is bullshit?

[Piranha]

La Scala sound great if you enjoy the sound of a sawzall cutting through a boiler tube []

Did you change your last name too BH?

Just stating the obvious truth here.

[D-MAN]

"One of the things that I have noticed, is that most folks get 'hung' up on the Khorn and Corner issue. I think a larger issue is the size of the room. Khorns need a lot of room to breathe. Big room = Great sound. Small room = poor sound.

If you tried Khorns, and you didn't like them, your room was probably too small. A good room would be about 25 feet by 30 feet. Having great corners in a room that is 12 feet by 16 feet probably won't cut it!"

This is Bullshit!

Please explain why this is bullshit?

I can't sign my name because the forum software converts it to *** for no apparent reason, but we can spell BullShit and nothing happens!

That's some FINE software!

As to the subject at hand, the ROOM SIZE is only part of the problem - it is a matter of reflectivity. Large rooms tend to reduce it somewhat just by distance and natural attenuation of the reflections, smaller rooms don't have that luxury. They will most likely need room treatments to resolve the reflectivity problem.

Now as for real low bass, that is BEST when fully expressed without reflections, however, it is still there, although somewhat "modified" shall we say.

The unfortunate fact of a fixed 45 deg. exit angle on the upper frequency cabinet is going to make a geometric requirement on the room using Khorns anyway. This dictates the listening position, of course, and frankly too close of a position caused by insufficient separation of the corners can be detrimental on your ears unless very low volumes are used. Low volumes (i.e., below 1 watt) will have another effect in that the speaker is not "flattened" out in its overall response until around 1 watt or so.

DM

[Frzninvt]

I live in an apartment and I have them in a smaller than 25' X 30' and they sound fabulous so the statement is ABSOLUTE BS to me. Think otherwise? Come over for a listen so you can Shut the Hell Up! I felt it was a bold and elitest statement from someone who is probably speculating anyway.

For the record I like the sound of the La Scala, but the Klipschorn performs better in more than one aspect. Could I live with La Scala's or Belle's absolutely, but why when I have Klipschorn's.

Now say goodbye!

[PrestonTom]

Folks,

I truly hope that a potential K-Horn user will not look at this discussion and conclude that anything less than a 25x40 ft room (or whatever) will be inadequate to enjoy a pair of K-Horns. Although overall room size is important, it is not the only issue (or solution) in room acoustics.

My own experience is living in a 12 x 22 ft room that opens onto a kitchen, hallway and front entry (making it seem larger). I added a false corner (half of a corner, actually) and l placed them along the long wall so I am at a 45 deg angle from each. This has been fantastic. It became even better, when I added a center. I enjoy these speakers and I would never try and use anything else and then try to supplement with a sub.

I use these to listen to music (well-recorded music and played at realistic levels). Perhaps I am happy because I am not trying to play sound (or movies) at killer levels or listen to stuff that is recorded with an exaggerated bass.

Corners are important, the other features of the room are also helpful but not as important. If it is an issue, then install a false corner. K-Horns are wonderful speakers (yes, I am biased). Please don't shy away from them because of the comments being made.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[NOSValves]

Frzninvt,
I think you need to say good bye! Talk about elitist bullshit. You take the cake buddy.

Craig