Jeff Matthews Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Thanks to Rick's (3DZapper's) gracious offer to loan me some freshly-recapped AA xovers for no greater risk than the cost of postage, I promised to review them and see what the difference would be between my original 1976 AA's vs. the re-capped AA's. Thank you, Rick. Here's the way I tested them: First, I used Steely Dan as a test track. I thought it would be good because it's not too "loud" of a track, and it has lots of keyboards and lead guitar. There is not too much buzzing rhythm guitar to choke out a clarity test. Whatever, but FYI. I turned on my stereo with the original xovers and listened to the tune for about a minute, paying careful attention to the quality of the instruments, individually and in harmony. The volume was very moderate - I mean very moderate, but enough to hear donwstairs with the door open. You could easily converse with another person while only a couple feet from the speakers. Of course, your voice would be a little higher, but nowhere near a shout or a yell. That's the same volume I used throughout the test. Then, I changed to the new xover in my left speaker and listened to the tune all the way through. I could discern no difference. Then with the same new re-cap installed in the left speaker, I played the song again - but only through the left speaker. I adjusted the balance on my pre-amp to full left. I listened to the song all the way through again, paying the same close attention, without anything coming out of the right speaker to possibly distract me. Then, I reconnected my original xover in the left, and I played the tune all the way through again - still with balance set to full left. If there was a difference (and that's a big if), it might be that the old xover sounded less subdued. The old xover MAYBE could have sounded more wide open, but even there, I have my doubts - that's how close it is. In the end of the day, my honest review would be that I would be completely indifferent as to having the original xovers vs. re-caps installed. Maybe my hearing is shot, as some of you have suggested. [] Seeing as Rick was kind enough to go through the trouble of sending these for a low-risk try-out, I just want to say that my review is completely honest with no skew at all. It would be a jack-*** thing to do to give a false review in order to back up earlier comments as to my theory on headroom that I have been making. So, really, this is a straight from the heart review, and I appreciate Rick for giving me this great opportunity to satisy my mind once and for all about the cross-over issues. Of course, I know my opinion is limited only to re-capped AA's vs. my original AA xovers - and it would not apply to anybody else's original AA's, nor any other xovers like ALK's, etc. Meagain was also given a pair of the loaner re-capped AA's from Rick. Rick really deserves serious recognition for doing this for 2 members who really wanted to see about re-caps. Hopefully, we'll get to see what Meagain was able to observe. Rick, I will honor the deal as promised. You are a truly great guy. Let me hang tight for a few days while some discourse develops to see if someone wants me to try this or that, etc. with the xover comparison. As for using meters and measuring devices, I do not have any equipment for that, so I will not be able to use any and tell anyone what readings result. I don't think that equipment like that would be useful, as I should either hear it or not - without some device telling me what I should hear. This was a really enlightening opportunity for me - thanks to Rick's good-will. Anytime you need a favor Rick, I'd be happy to oblige. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 sounds like You got luck, Jeff ..... maybe your x-overs had been recapped in the past .... most don't experience no change, esp since as the caps age, ESR seems to go thru the roof on the klipsch stuff ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted December 31, 2005 Author Share Posted December 31, 2005 sounds like You got luck, Jeff ..... maybe your x-overs had been recapped in the past .... most don't experience no change, esp since as the caps age, ESR seems to go thru the roof on the klipsch stuff ... I got luck thanks to Rick. Low risk trials are the way to go. How could I tell whether my "oldies" were re-capped in the past. I can tell you what they "look" like. Still have the tin cans. What are you referring to by "ESR?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Jeff, ESR is the Equivalent Series Resistance. It goes up as the cap ages, and changes the response of the crossover. http://xtronics.com/reference/esr.htm Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Interesting review. When I went from my original AAs to Dean's auricapped A's, the difference was not huge either. Smoothed the midrange out a bit. It wasn't until I got his Superduper AA's that the difference was significant. BTW - Do you mean Rick? Last I checked, 3D was Rick, not Mark.[] Unless of course you got Rick's crossovers from Mark???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted December 31, 2005 Author Share Posted December 31, 2005 Interesting review. When I went from my original AAs to Dean's auricapped A's, the difference was not huge either. Smoothed the midrange out a bit. It wasn't until I got his Superduper AA's that the difference was significant. BTW - Do you mean Rick? Last I checked, 3D was Rick, not Mark.[] Unless of course you got Rick's crossovers from Mark???? What are you talking about? Just kidding. [] I changed it. I don't know why I was thinking "Mark." I see Meagain received hers and is hoping to test today. It'll be interesting to see what she has to say. I don't discount that she may witness an entirely different sound. Let's see. How about that? We'll have 2 straight-up honest reviews back-to-back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkBK Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Jeff, Why not try BOTH crossovers before/after rather than one. I think it would be good for you to really hear the complete system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted December 31, 2005 Author Share Posted December 31, 2005 I feel it wouldn't be necessary, since I had in mind comments of some folks' posts in other threads that the difference is positive and undeniable. If I can't make it out in 1 speaker, I doubt 2 would change enough, if anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkBK Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 So was your listen to the original xover first done with only the same channel? Are you using a mono mix? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Jeff, Put them both in and crank it. That is how you are used to listening and may be a more valid test. We do appreciate your complete honesty. Oh yeah, you should have heard those xovers before. I bought them on eBay at a good price a while ago. They were the meanest sounding things ever. Very harsh in the mids and highs like listening to cheap piezo drivers. UGH!!! Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 You CANNOT judge crossovers when you only replace one at a time. It just doesn't work. Seriously. I've tried. So have others. Swap them both then tell us what you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 I feel it wouldn't be necessary, since I had in mind comments of some folks' posts in other threads that the difference is positive and undeniable. If I can't make it out in 1 speaker, I doubt 2 would change enough, if anything. Wrong. You have to replace both of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted December 31, 2005 Author Share Posted December 31, 2005 You know what I'd really like? W/o going to R/S and buying a bunch of little parts, I'd like to be able to do a quick switch "A - B" so I can hear with no delays. The goal (at least from the xover enthusiasts here) is that I should hear a noticeable difference. Therefore, A-B testing might help me notice something if there's anything to notice. However, I think at this point I could safely surmise that the difference, even if there is one, would not be significant in terms of going "Wow! Now, I can definitely hear that." I think I could jumper the woofs, mids and tweets to both xovers and also, "Y" both inputs on the xovers to a switch (the switch could be my hand just moving the wires manually, since there'd only be 2 to move). Don't know that I'd like doing that at loud volumes, though. Any ideas? EDIT: I saw lots of intervening posts about how you simply can't do one at a time. So, I will definitely do both. The point of this thread was that I WANT to come back and tell you all there is a difference. If so, I've just improved my system. So, guys. Any A/B ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted December 31, 2005 Author Share Posted December 31, 2005 While waiting for an elec. guru to post, I went ahead and installed both. But I listened to the tune first on the old ones. I turned it up fairly loud for both sets. I maintained a steady volume and just listened to the song carefully. It appears there could be a difference here, but I am not willing to go definitive, yet. That said, I won't bother with telling you what difference I think I might have heard - that would be pointless, and I might have heard nothing and dreamed it. That's the problem with the time it takes to switch between A/B. Come on ya'll, someone's got a good ready-made idea for quick switching - or do you think my "manual way" suggested above is safe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Josh loaned me his Jensen paper-in-oil AA networks, to compare against the BEC (Bob Crites, of this forum) recapped AA in my Belles. At first casual listening, I didn't think there was much difference, either. But then I took more serious listening time with my "known reference" music selections, and began to notice subtle, but definite changes in the presentation. It's the INNER DETAIL that changes with this cap swap, but not so much the basic sound of the network. It's not "night and day" but it is most definitely a difference I can appreciate. The "edges" of the notes are smoother, without "veiling" the sound. Mostly, they sound more smooth and relaxed - more "liquid". They also sound a bit better than the BEC's do when I crank 'em......I just think that the BEC versions sound their best at more modest volumes, and the Jensens are a bit better "opened up". With ORIGINAL cap networks, they should be swapped out in any case, as the values of the caps drift over time, and build up a resistance (ESR). When I had Bob recap the old networks with similar motor run caps, THAT was a substantial improvement, as the changes in my caps as measured resulted in about half of the power to the tweeters being lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted December 31, 2005 Author Share Posted December 31, 2005 Okay, no A/B gurus, yet. Here's my thoughts..... I just got through blasting the hell out of a handful of favorites. I think the re-caps take a little edge off the mids and highs. Maybe the bass, too, but "edge" could probably rarely ever be a negative on the lows, so whatever. To be sure, I'd really need a quick A/B, but like I said, I think some of the edge disappears with the re-caps. Okay, now as to relative importance as between amp and xovers: It seems to me that to get that jump from a dull, jello-like bass to a powerful, fast, precise, punchy bass, the switch from lower-powered amps to higher-powered amps (like from 90-watt Marantz to 325-watt Crown) is the only means there. (I don't mean necessarily Marantz to Crown - just relative power differences). That said, if I had to prioritize, and I had my KHorns with my old 90-watt Marantz 1180DC (which was a very good amp for sure), I'd definitely jump to the Crown before changing xovers. The xovers would be a nice final tweak, but the amp is all the meat on the bone - to me that is. Just IMO. EDIT: I just saw Audible's post hit right before mine. Going back and reading his post, I think my observations match his. So, I'm probably right on track. Therefore, I think the amp is a higher priority than xovers, although xovers are a nice tweak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Jeff, It's all about getting the best sound possible without spending an arm and a leg or $40,000 on a speaker set that can compete with the Khorns no matter which topology or power of the amp we choose. The difference between your Marantz and your Crown is more than just power. The design engineers use different "tricks" to get the sound that they want. Some engineer for "smoothness" others for "clarity", a few for "bite" among other house sounds. Choose your poison. Play those networks for a few days. The caps are brand new and need some hours to break in. You should notice increased detail on familiar recordings in all frequency ranges. For sure, it's not as dramatic as new speakers or a new amp but the changes are there. And, those xovers are hardly "state of the art". The only circuit change from your old ones is the P-trap on the squaker. ALKs and I'm sure Dean's Super AAs are another step or three up the ladder. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 I was incredibly sick yesterday & today. Hubby got home at midnight last night. We've not yet gotten to listen to music let alone install the x-overs. Hopefully we can do this tomorrow but we'll have to listen to what we have again. Especially him cuz he's been gone a week and I think I tweaked a few things with my receiver settings. Going to a party tonight. It would be nice to install one in 'b' and flop between the 2. I might try that before installing both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 I was incredibly sick yesterday & today. Hubby got home at midnight last night. We've not yet gotten to listen to music let alone install the x-overs. Hopefully we can do this tomorrow but we'll have to listen to what we have again. Especially him cuz he's been gone a week and I think I tweaked a few things with my receiver settings. Going to a party tonight. It would be nice to install one in 'b' and flop between the 2. I might try that before installing both. No, No, No and again No! Install BOTH and listen carefully. I'll say this, going from almost brand new Auricapped A's to Dean's Super AA's made a more significant difference then some much more expensive changes I've made to my system over the years. Bringing them back to spec will certainly help smooth things out but it probably won't be night and day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 It'll be rough though. Listen, pull out speakers, install new x-overs, shove them back in corners - then listen again. Unless the difference is dramatic/in your face, it will be very hard to remember what we just listened to before spending several minutes changing them out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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