Jeff Matthews Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Alot of folks have mentioned there's too much compressing of recordings going on, and even the engineers don't like it. I am just wondering what would too much compression sound like. I have an idea - a guess.... I listen to alot of classic rock, but I have a few newer tunes - like Dave Matthews' "I Did It." It seems out of just about everything I own, this tune just sounds like the music is being shoved right at you in your face. Is this a more "compressed" recording? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Compression. What does it sound like? Let me see... Ah! I've got it. Pretty much any low powered SET amplifier being asked to play anything other than a jazz ensemble on any loudspeaker at spl's over and above a reasonably quite conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted January 2, 2006 Author Share Posted January 2, 2006 Compression. What does it sound like? Let me see... Ah! I've got it. Pretty much any low powered SET amplifier being asked to play anything other than a jazz ensemble on any loudspeaker at spl's over and above a reasonably quite conversation. hmmm. [*-)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Well, actually there is more to it than that. First of all, different amp types compress differently. Tubes compress in a way that makes them sound louder by supressing the high distortion harmonics when they are overdriven. In transistor amps, overdrive distortion includes the higher harmonics which the ear interprets as indicators of loudness. In transisters this happens quickly as they are overdriven so the loudness is heard and as they saturate they just make more distortion without getting any louder. In tubes, when they overdrive you get a much more listenable boost because the higher harminics are not present, but as they continue to be overdriven to saturation they reach a top sound level - but!; as they are overdriven further it is only then that the additional higher harmonics begin to come in - and these are what make the same top level sound even louder. This is why the talk about tube watts louder than transister watts. This is a different kind of compression that continues to sound like additional headroom to the ear - and it is less distorted sounding. Pauln Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivendell61 Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Jeff, I don't know the Dave Matthews tune.... But here is a 'classic' article on "compression" by Rip Rowan which might help: http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/files/8A133F52D0FD71AB86256C2E005DAF1C Do you know the band 'Rush'? If you scroll about half way down he shows graphically the progressive "compression" of Rush albums from the 1984 'Grace Under Pressure' (good mastering) to the heavily limited 1992 'Vapor Trails'. He also shows the effects on specific transients (drum). If you have any of those albums you could listen and compare....and get some idea of the sonic consequences. Brief rant: this is what is (IMHO) better called 'peak limiting' or 'brick wall limiting'--now generically termed 'compression' which confuses it with the 'good' compression. Note that Rowan never uses the term compression. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivendell61 Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Compression follow-up..... Here is a short page which tries to discriminate between good compression and bad--using some examples like Pet Sounds, Beatles mono vs stereo (using Fairchild 670 tube limiter), Byrds, etc. Pre loudness wars stuff. http://www.netassoc.net/dougspage/HoffLesson3.htm Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 There is also driver compression -- which is not to be confused with compression drivers -- which are also subject to compression. It happens when you are using too much headroom.[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Dynamic compression Power compression Horn compression (ratio) what else ..??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Well if you have a computer and can pipe it into your sound system get the Sony Sound Forge software and use the compression filter at different settings to see what it does. They also can use "normalize", "Clipped peak restoration" "wave hammer" and a bunch of other filters to boost up weak voices. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 well, I can say that zoloft helps some as an anti-compressant. Everyone can feel compressed at times... no reason to think there should be a stigma associated with it. if you don't get help at Charter, get help somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 It seems out of just about everything I own, this tune just sounds like the music is being shoved right at you in your face. Is this a more "compressed" recording? When I listen to AM in the car, I can hear everything at low volume levels. When I switch to a good quality CD, I have to turn the music up so I can hear everything. Obviously the AM sounds like cr*p when you turn the music up. The CD doesn't. I guess that's what I hear when something is either compressed or not compressed. Edit: Man, that was profound! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Man, I never thought of that. I'm not depressed at all -- I'm compressed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay481985 Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 try listening to any preview of a cd track on amazon or yahoo. Also try watching trailers on yahoo movie previews jeez..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Someplace, long ago, I read that acoustic guitar, probaly the nylon string type, sounds unimressive without some compression. Therefore engineers will use devices to alter the sound. I'd think there is a lot variance in the techique. Not quite limiting the high levels as much as increasing the low levels. So the sound can still be heard as the note decays. Then there is the attack time of the circuit, etc. Maybe even a look ahead of a bit stream in these days. My suspicion is that some well favored recordings are indeed the product of good use of compression. Sgt. Andy and I favor Loggins and Messina. The recordings are lovely with the acoustic instruments, including the mandolin. Again, I think this might the result of judicious use of compression, or boosting the low levels. Another album of interest is Joan Biaz Diamonds and Rust. Dare I say, an audiophile recording in its day. The guitar recording is very distinctive. I doubt it from lack of processing. Rather good processing. I also recall a lament in an audio magazine. Some fellows at an audio convention decided to compare a live drum set in the hotel room with a recording played back on a set up in the same room. They had to pump almost a kilowatt into the speakers and it just barely made the same impression. No word there that they were using K-Horn. Probably they should have. Still, you see the problem of dynamic range. It is beyond the reach of many systems. I do think that horns solve some of the problem. At the advent of the CD world, many manufacturiers were touting things as "digital ready." One writer observed that only the (ancient) K-Horn was ready for the dynamic range. OTOH, I do love Telarc classical and trust they have not used compressors. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Gil, Thanks. This makes sense. Also, I have to say, Diamonds and Rust is magical in it's playback. Interesting thought about the enhancing use of compression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 What about speakers that exhibit "dynamic compression"? Most non-horn direct radiators do. These are recognized by a lack of dynamics. Yes, the frequencies are all there, including all the nuance stuff that create a believable soundstage. But the overall dynamic range is reduced in order to pull it off. These compressed speakers can be somewhat enticing - until one has a chance to live with horns for a while and experiences the dynamics they have been missing, then the "enticement" of non-horns soon disappears! DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 Good thoughts, D-MAN. Some of the more high-end offerings by manufactureres such as B&W, Thiel, Wilson Audio etc, DO feature a very dynamic portrayal of music, along with subtlety. But the draw backs include the need for very expensive amplification, room and placement requirements that make the Klipschorn seem easy to please, and a price that makes the Klipschorn seem a bargain. Out of all the high end loudspeakers I've heard recently, other than Klipsch, I've been most impressed with Thiel. They've kept their prices relatively low considering the technology and finish offered. Other manufacturers are charging an absolute mint for their speakers. You get great paint jobs and over-engineering for your (lots of) money. But the sound is no different from the same speaker with less chrome. It's easy to get pulled in by looks alone on the showroom floor. Sometimes I wonder how much the so-called objectivity of Hi-Fi reviewers is tested by the aesthetics of the product they're testing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 What about speakers that exhibit "dynamic compression"? Most non-horn direct radiators do. These are recognized by a lack of dynamics. Yes, the frequencies are all there, including all the nuance stuff that create a believable soundstage. But the overall dynamic range is reduced in order to pull it off. These compressed speakers can be somewhat enticing - until one has a chance to live with horns for a while and experiences the dynamics they have been missing, then the "enticement" of non-horns soon disappears! DM Well said that is what I think of when I think of compression, the compression of dynamic range in sound reproduction i.e. like listening to a cassette tape vs. a good CD or Vinyl. The dynamics are just not there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgonko Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 My best method to actually "see" if a track is heavily compressed is to rip it (from the original CD) to the uncompressed 44.1KHz/16-bit WAV format (note "uncompressed" there has nothing to do with compressing the dynamic range of the audio signal - explained later - but rather that the track is perfectly stored bit-for-bit, taking up as much data storage space is its original). Do not use MP3 encoding or an MP3 source (even though it may still work for this test but it is likely someone along the way messed with the signal). Load the track into Goldwave and be sure the level meters are easily visible. Be sure to mute all other inputs you may have (just for good measure). Play the track and watch to see if the meters show a dynamic range of only like 2 to 3dB. An ultimate example track is "Renegades of Funk" by RATM. The meters will actually brickwall slightly under 0dBFS and STAY THERE. It is unbelievable. I thought my car audio system was dying or something but its just pure distortion! Yes, it does make the song "sound" louder because the average level is never below -1dBFS but still, so much lesser than it could have sounded. Kind of like those "local cable TV infomercials" that you always just mute because they are loud and annoying (causing me to never buy their product just for spite). And if someone says the song (RoF) isn't clipped because 0dBFS is never reached, that's because its clipping at -0.10dB (what the engineer set as the metaphoric concrete lead-lined brickwall). Most if not all newer rock/metal bands must check a checkbox on a Mastering Studio Waiver that says "Make us sound as loud as possible without regard to quality cuz we wanna rock!!" (which makes the engineer's eyes roll but he's getting paid so so what). Someone did mention how the Rush CD's became more compressed over the years. I haven't tested this but I'm sure its true (glad I like their early 80's stuff more, heh). Well "Tom Sawyer" right now does show a good 12dB of PPM dynamic range. Good Vibrations (Beach Boys) is around 24 After listening/watching a dozen or so heavily compressed tracks, you'll become good at picking them out by ear only. It really is a huge bummer that musicians allow this to happen to their music!! Similar to how much I dislike the MP3 format. People paying for what...25% of the actual data they should be getting...only because a math formula says you won't hear certain frequencies??? Baloney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steamer Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 link on compression in audio: http://sound.westhost.com/compression.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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