maxg Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 Max, Have you ever run you Clearaudtio TT in a multiple tonearm configuration. I am looking to upgrade my TT now, but was thinking it would be cheaper in the long run to just pull the trigger on the Clearaudio with one tonearm with stereo cartridge, and then upgrade it with an additional tonearm and mono cartridge as opposed to two seperate TT, arms and cartridges. So, from what I have seen so far, I beleive your rig is the only one capable of running multiple tonearms and was wondering if you have ever tried it? Travis I havent run this on my own TT but I have played with several variations in the supplier's place. Generally they demo tables with 3 arms on them - a linear like mine, a 14 inch(!) and a 9 inch arm - often with the same cart on each (so you can see the differences). I too see it as a major advantage of the table - but remember you need 2 phono stages - or something clever like MDeneen's pre with 2 inputs for phono. I am fairly sold on the idea of a mono cart/arm at some point (like when I get some money together) and possibly a third arm but I am not sure what variant to go for - I would love to try a ZYX Airy 3 on a Schroeder arm but then - would I ever use the linear tracker? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdepot Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 How did you get the Linn Basik to go onto the TD160? I know that it's not a question that can be answered simply, but in brief, was if very difficult, ie. did you have to make many custom fittings? Was tha improvement worth the effort? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted February 26, 2006 Moderators Share Posted February 26, 2006 Max, Thanks for the info.. Is there much of a difference between the Tangent and TQ-1 linear tonearms other then the $1,250 price difference? What does the tonearm do when it hits the deadwax at the end, does it automaticaly lift or is it strictly manual? Is there much to moving the tonearm into place after the record is on the platter, in other words does it simply pivot into place. Sorry about the questions, unfortunately, we don't have a dealer here in Austin and I am going to need to travel an hour South or 3 hours North to demo one. Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardsweb Posted February 26, 2006 Author Share Posted February 26, 2006 Max, ... I am going to need to travel an hour South or 3 hours North to demo one. Travis I take it you are considering seeing Galen here in San Antonio? Have you been to Ne Plus Ultra in Austin? http://www.neplusultrainc.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudret Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 Here is my Thorens TD-124 MKII with SME 3009-S2. The only change from the picture is, I am currently using Shure V15-VxMR. Kudret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 Max, Thanks for the info.. Is there much of a difference between the Tangent and TQ-1 linear tonearms other then the $1,250 price difference? What does the tonearm do when it hits the deadwax at the end, does it automaticaly lift or is it strictly manual? Is there much to moving the tonearm into place after the record is on the platter, in other words does it simply pivot into place. Sorry about the questions, unfortunately, we don't have a dealer here in Austin and I am going to need to travel an hour South or 3 hours North to demo one. Travis OK Travis, This is going to be long - so brace yourself. First off - a warning - dont go there!!! Setting up this arm to work properly (i.e. as brilliantly as it should for the money it cost) has been a total nightmare and has really taken a good ten months to get it nigh on perfect. You have been warned!!!! Now let us imagine you are insane enough to still be considering it. Congratulations - you are about to go where no normal arm can take you. The entire logic of a linear tracking arm is to keep the cartridge in EXACTLY the right location and angle in the groove throughout the duration of a side of vinyl. Only a linear tracking arm can do this - and these models are just about the only ones on the market that do it without external air compressors and such like. Sadly - in order to successfully achieve this feat you need some serious engineering (and setup - I mentioned that) and compromises on the operation of the arm are risks to the degree of perfection you can achieve. There are 3 arms in the range: The Tangent, the TQI-2000 and the TQI MAster Reference. The tangent lacks a number of adjustments and is therefore the hardest to get setup correctly. The Master reference is a thing of beauty and the ultimate step as well as being the easiest to setup. In the middle we have the TQI-2000. It is important to stress that in terms of ultimate sound (IMHO of course) there is no difference between the 2000 and the Master Reference ONCE PROPERLY SETUP. Getting there, however, is that much harder. To understand what we are embarking on when setting up a linear tracker the best I can do is to put it like this. We are attempting to control the motion of a totally flexible system that will allow, at the extreme, the cartridge to describe a 1 inch circle in the air (or sitting on a very warped record!!). It is extremely important that the motion of the cartridge is in only one of 2 directions - forward or backwards (for an off-centre pressing). Attached to this post is a diagram I just knocked up that should serve to explain how this thing works - or should work. The key point of the diagram are as follows: 1. The mounting platform has to be positioned exactly to allow the cartridge to follow the path of the cutting lathe - i.e cutting an exact radius towards the centre of the record. 2. The criticial mounting point sits on a small truck that rides on the fixed runner for the armlet. Whilst this will allow motion in all directions as described above the system should be so setup and balanced such that the only motion it experiences it when you raise or lower the armlet. Other than that ALL motion of the armlet should cause ONLY motion of the truck on the fixed runner. Any twisting of the armlet about the critical mounting point degrades the sound. This is a major reason to buy the outer ring that can be seen in pictures of my setup. The outer ring totally flattens records eliminating vertical motion and therefore keeping the cartridge in the optimum postion at all times. I am stressing all of this simply because you refered to "pivoting into place" and obviously (hopefully) it is clear there is no pivotting involed other than lowering and raising the armlet. Other than all of that with regards to your other question - this arm is totally manual - you have to raise it at the end of the record. In terms of operation and use of the arm there are a number of further things to consider. Once you have understood that the motion is entirely that of the small truck riding up and down the fixed runner you can immediately see that the entire mass of the armlet, cartridge, counterweights, critical mounting point and the small truck on which it rides are being moved solely by the force experienced at the diamond of the cartridge as it rides in the groove. The combined mass of all of the above is greater than that of almost all other arms. A typical medium mass arm has an apparent mass (that mass that is affected by the force on the diamond) of about 11 grams. A light arm can be as low as 5 grams and even a very heavy arm is rarely more than about 18 grams. Even with a heavy cartridge on a heavy arm you would not expect the total mass to be moved to be greater than about 30 grams. 30 grams is about the minimum mass you can setup on this type of arm. It assumes a very light cartridge with a projecting cantilever and a relatively high tracking weight that allows minimal counterbalancing weights on the back of the armlet. With my current setup (Denon 103 cartridge) that weighs in at 9 grams with a tracking weight of 2.5 grams I guess my total moving mass to be in the order of 35-40 grams. The 2 critical points here are: 1. For the arm to work reliably you really need a cartridge that tracks at a minimum of 2 grams. 2. The armlet has to be exactly parallel to the surface of the record to maximise the effectiveness of the forces applied to the diamond in moving the entire construct. I cannot stress the above 2 points strongly enough. Aside from my Denon (which cost about $130) I have a Shelter 901 (which cost about $1300). The Denon plays better than the Shelter on this setup simply because it tracks at a higher weight. Think about this - the cartridge that costs one tenth of the price plays better - you may never see this affect again in audio. Now have I illuminated the nightmare sufficiently? Do you really want to go there? Do you have the stomach and the patience for it? Would it not be better to go for a 12 inch or 14 inch arm that will give you 95% of the linear tracker with none of this heartache and probably lower cost? Its up to you of course - I went the loony's way and am happy I did. I have learned more about setting up a TT in a year than I might have expected to do in 10 years and I now have what I believe to be close to the ultimate sound possible with a TT for the money I have spent, if not for the time..... Sorry this was so long - but there is a lot of information to impart if you are seriously considering this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmikid Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 Good morning Max! I am having a terrible morning at work where everything goes wrong and my colleges (spelling) make sure it stays that way, it can't get any worse. So I thought: "Just a few minutes of relaxation on the forum". conclusion one: Now I have a headache as well! conclusion two: It can get worse! conclusion three: I'd go for 12"! (and I will) Thanks, Tim.[] edit & ps: I have never seen a 14" arm, I am so backdated! You got pics or links? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 Clearaudio offer a version of the Unify arm that is 14 inches long. You can see it at their site www.clearaudio.de if you download the brochure which has their entire range (available in English too). If you look through the brochure they show the Master Solution (my table) with the 14 inch arm - it is a monster! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 I don't know I was hoping for more response to this one than that - my post on the vagaries of the linear tracking arm took a lot of work. Anyone find it remotely interesting/useful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Max, I found your post interesting but I guess there are not that many people around this site who have first hand experience with those Clearaudio arms......and to be honest: I am pleased that I have mastered my SMEs......actually this relative simplicity of adjustment was one reason why I picked up a second SME......and reading your post I am glad I did []. Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 I don't know I was hoping for more response to this one than that - my post on the vagaries of the linear tracking arm took a lot of work. Anyone find it remotely interesting/useful?Well, it left me a little speechless -- because it was so thorough and your applied talents are clearly exceptional. Great description of your masterful effort to make the dam thing work well! Your writeup belongs to the ages, and should be seriously considered by anyone thinking of buying one. I do think that doing it that well should be a dealer responsibility, but that there may not be many dealers who can do it.It definitely didn't encourage me to go for an LT arm! Rather, it made me grateful for the relative simplicity of the Vector tonearm I and Gary have. We've both noticed that our carts track badly warped and off-center LPs without visible distress or notable cantilever swings, something I haven't seen with other tonearms I've owned, and sounds like it can be a real bear with the CA. Still, good linear tracking has been highly praised, and I'm not sure I'd look for a direct comparison with mine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Larry and Wolfram - thanks. I was just wondering whether anyone would take the time to read it at all - seems a few did and that is what matters. The subject of warped or off-centre records is an interesting one. Frankly it is mainly with audiophile recordings that I get the problem - simply, I guess, as a result of their relatively small production volumes and difficulty with the apparatus. It is noticable that Philips records are never off centre - IME to date. As for tracking off-centre - this is the weakness of the LT setup - although I now have it so it will track 99% of my collection - which was no mean task let me tell you - and largely what the setup process was all about. What I am interested in, however, is whether or not you can hear that a record is off-centre. I am sure your arms track them - hell my old Project 9 arm would track just about anything - but can you hear a difference when the record has been mis-centred. Even with the maximum optimization at my disposal I can hear off-centredness almost immediatley. This may be largely down to the increased moving mass and the cartrdige tip riding up and down the groove as it fights to stay on course - on the other hand it should be experienced - to a greater or lesser degree by all arms. In theory - a light tone arm - with a light cartridge in place should suffer this audible distortion least of all but at these tend to be run with high compliance cartridges that might negate the benefit. Too many variables aren't there. How do we ever get these things to play at all? Edit : I should thank Tim too - he responded without prompting after all!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardsweb Posted February 28, 2006 Author Share Posted February 28, 2006 OK Travis, This is going to be long - so brace yourself ...snip.... Sorry this was so long - but there is a lot of information to impart if you are seriously considering this. Great write up. Remember audio nirvana is a journey. The important thing is not necessarily the destination but having fun on the trip there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted February 28, 2006 Moderators Share Posted February 28, 2006 Max, Just saw your post, incredible, and thank you very much. Not too long at all, was precisely was what I was looking for. Going to do some more reseach on it and see, but this looks like the way to go for me. The Nottingham, like your TT, can also be done in a multiple arm setup, which is really the way I want to go. One for arm for stereo and one for mono. But with the clear audio I could go one linear, and one with one of the longer tone arms you mentioned. It would seem like I need to do some reseach, get with my dealer(s) to see this thing do a demo. I am for sure going to have to go see the dealer in Austin because I am not going to have the skills to do what you have done with the LT, so I will have to make him do it. Thanks again!!! Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted February 28, 2006 Moderators Share Posted February 28, 2006 Max, ... I am going to need to travel an hour South or 3 hours North to demo one. Travis I take it you are considering seeing Galen here in San Antonio? Have you been to Ne Plus Ultra in Austin? http://www.neplusultrainc.com Yes, indeed, Galen has always done right by me, I like to do business with him whenever possible. I am going to make a trip to Ne Plus, I have been afraid to go in there, might lead to going off the deep end in Audio and then divorce. I am going to wear blinders when I go in and tell him that I only want to see the TT. However, he does have the Avantgarde set up, which scares me the most. $20K horn speakers that sound just incredible, I believe 103db efficiency, Have to stay away from those for sure. Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 What I am interested in, however, is whether or not you can hear that a record is off-centre. I am sure your arms track them - hell my old Project 9 arm would track just about anything - but can you hear a difference when the record has been mis-centred.I used to hear some momentary wow, i.e., pitch variations, when marked or severe warps were concentrated in a small sector of the rotation, especially near the edge. I assumed that was because the warp caused the groove to momentarily slow and speed up (or vice versa) under the needle. I haven't heard it recently, but don't know if I can attribute that to my current and/or previous (Graham 2.1) tone arms.I also definitely have heard in the past a change in groove noise and/or character in severe warps. The Vector seems to have minimized or eliminated that, at least for me and my records. It seems to me I've heard once-per-revolution wow from badly off-center records, and might still have that problem occasionally. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Max, Just saw your post, incredible, and thank you very much. Not too long at all, was precisely was what I was looking for. Going to do some more reseach on it and see, but this looks like the way to go for me. The Nottingham, like your TT, can also be done in a multiple arm setup, which is really the way I want to go. One for arm for stereo and one for mono. But with the clear audio I could go one linear, and one with one of the longer tone arms you mentioned. It would seem like I need to do some reseach, get with my dealer(s) to see this thing do a demo. I am for sure going to have to go see the dealer in Austin because I am not going to have the skills to do what you have done with the LT, so I will have to make him do it. Thanks again!!! Travis I can't believe you are going for this option after all that I wrote. I would suggest you print off my post and give it to your dealer - there are things in there you do not learn doing demos. I have found that most dealers can successfully demo an LT arm by carefully choosing the vinyl to work with. If you have any off-centre pressings - take them with you to the demo and see how his setup copes with them. If they play OK then he knows what he is doing. What cartridge are you considering? If you are feeling very brave I think the ZYX Airy 3 could be made to work tracking at 1.9 grams and that would probably give you the best sound currently possible (just MO of course). If you want more budgetary offerings the Denon 103 is the cheapest possible option and the Kontrapunct range are well worth considering aside, obviously, from all the clearaudio options - of which I am not a massive fan. Those Avantgarde's are either uno's or Duo's from your description - just be thankful he does not have the Trios setup (110 dB/w/m) - there is no better sound this side of the galaxy. Finally in the event of problems with the arm that your dealer cannot solve - email me, or even, time zones permitting, call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardsweb Posted February 28, 2006 Author Share Posted February 28, 2006 Yes, indeed, Galen has always done right by me, I like to do business with him whenever possible. I am going to make a trip to Ne Plus, I have been afraid to go in there, might lead to going off the deep end in Audio and then divorce. I am going to wear blinders when I go in and tell him that I only want to see the TT. However, he does have the Avantgarde set up, which scares me the most. $20K horn speakers that sound just incredible, I believe 103db efficiency, Have to stay away from those for sure. Travis I'm scheduled to meet with the Houston Audio Society group at Ne Plus on March 19th. I figured I would be safer in a group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmikid Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Max, it was a plaesure to read and to be honest the headache was caused by whining colleges (Still don't know if I spelled it right). I heard the VYGER Baltic M recently with the 12" SME series 300 and to date it is the best TT together with yours (the same anyway) that I have heard ever. Iow it is the best TT with arm I have ever heard. Everything was just right. I hate it when that happens in audio. Usually this means I will lose a lot of money. This time not immediately, but certainly I am in love and that is very dangerous for an audionut like me. You know what happened when I fell in love with the mc 30's. [8-|] The TT is magnetically suspended and is, as it were, floating in the air. The best cart I heard in this one was the Blue Note Baldinotti (?), which struck me, because I did compare it to ZYX, Phasetech, Lyra and Jan Allaerts. These are all more expensive. Sigh... O yes, why I brought it up. This arm is quite easy to set up. (compared to liniair). Tim. edit: I will get some pics, but first I have to eat my pizza! [pi] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmikid Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Suck on this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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