K-Horn question and room acoustics...

[steamer]

Since they are designed to work in corners is the room affected differently as in the corners and the effect on bass...normally you tuck a speaker in the corner to improve bass response and stick a bass trap behind to smooth out the response,I realize the design utilizes corner placement for extension but because of that is there no booming bass effecting the sound.I'm not sure if I have asked this or framed my question correctly...lets try this,I have my LaScala's pulled out from the corners and use bass traps to get the desired bass response,now if I would put K-Horns in remove the traps would the sound be the same?

Greg

[jcmusic]

It's all about acoustics, size and space have a lot to do with reproduction; also placement.

this is my opinion and experience. you must decide for yourself the desired sound you are looking for.

Jay

[formica]

Since they are designed to work in corners is the

room affected differently as in the corners and the effect on

bass...normally you tuck a speaker in the corner to improve bass

response and stick a bass trap behind to smooth out the response,... I

have my LaScala's pulled out from the corners and use bass traps to get

the desired bass response,now if I would put K-Horns in remove the

traps would the sound be the same?

No, the sound would be quite different, but not due to the removal of

the bass trap. LaScala's are very lean in the lower

frequencies... while the khorns extend significantly lower and

therefore sound much more balanced.

Although room modes are an important variable, the bass traps have

limited effect on the lowest frequencies unless they are very

thick. The difference between the LaScala and Khorn will be much

greater than the difference due to the bass trap. (ie: they would sound quite different)

For me, Khorns would win hands down... and I think this would be

the case for a majority of people. I just don't know if you fall

into that majority or not...

Hope I understood your question correctly?...

ROb

[steamer]

Since they are designed to work in corners is the room affected differently as in the corners and the effect on bass...normally you tuck a speaker in the corner to improve bass response and stick a bass trap behind to smooth out the response,... I have my LaScala's pulled out from the corners and use bass traps to get the desired bass response,now if I would put K-Horns in remove the traps would the sound be the same?

No, the sound would be quite different, but not due to the removal of the bass trap. LaScala's are very lean in the lower frequencies... while the khorns extend significantly lower and therefore sound much more balanced.

Although room modes are an important variable, the bass traps have limited effect on the lowest frequencies unless they are very thick. The difference between the LaScala and Khorn will be much greater than the difference due to the bass trap. (ie: they would sound quite different)

For me, Khorns would win hands down... and I think this would be the case for a majority of people. I just don't know if you fall into that majority or not...

Hope I understood your question correctly?...

ROb

Thankyou for your reply,

In case you didnt know I run a dedicated bass system(BagEnd 2x18)because I think as you the LaScala's are lean in that department.My thinking is to run K-Horn bass bins (see the post about some on ebay)with the BagEnds in front and my Altec's for the highs.I have the equip. to set everything up and was trying to get a feel for what it might all sound like.

Greg

[steamer]

Since they are designed to work in corners is the room affected differently as in the corners and the effect on bass...normally you tuck a speaker in the corner to improve bass response and stick a bass trap behind to smooth out the response,... I have my LaScala's pulled out from the corners and use bass traps to get the desired bass response,now if I would put K-Horns in remove the traps would the sound be the same?

No, the sound would be quite different, but not due to the removal of the bass trap. LaScala's are very lean in the lower frequencies... while the khorns extend significantly lower and therefore sound much more balanced.

Although room modes are an important variable, the bass traps have limited effect on the lowest frequencies unless they are very thick. The difference between the LaScala and Khorn will be much greater than the difference due to the bass trap. (ie: they would sound quite different)

For me, Khorns would win hands down... and I think this would be the case for a majority of people. I just don't know if you fall into that majority or not...

Hope I understood your question correctly?...

ROb

Thankyou for your reply,

In case you didnt know I run a dedicated bass system(BagEnd 2x18)because I think as you the LaScala's are lean in that department.My thinking is to run K-Horn bass bins (see the post about some on ebay)with the BagEnds in front and my Altec's for the highs.I have the equip. to set everything up and was trying to get a feel for what it might all sound like.

Greg

NOTE:see my system and substitute my LaScala bass bins for the K-horns in the corner.

Thanks,Greg

[DrWho]

Putting any speaker into the corner maximizes the number of excited

room modes in addition to the corner loading effects. Try putting your

current subs into the front corners to get an idea of how the khorns

would interact with the room. You will notice a shift in frequency of

the peaks and nulls at the listening position as compared to where your

lascalas are. Usually a corner positioned speaker sounds the best, but

there are always those few odd rooms where it sounds awful - and that

would be the kind of room you don't want to put khorns in because they

are forced to be in the corners.

[steamer]

Putting any speaker into the corner maximizes the number of excited room modes in addition to the corner loading effects. Try putting your current subs into the front corners to get an idea of how the khorns would interact with the room. You will notice a shift in frequency of the peaks and nulls at the listening position as compared to where your lascalas are. Usually a corner positioned speaker sounds the best, but there are always those few odd rooms where it sounds awful - and that would be the kind of room you don't want to put khorns in because they are forced to be in the corners.

Thanks Who,

I currently have the subs in the corners behind the Scala's as far from the boundries as possible,the Scala's pulled out to make room.I am looking at kind a reverse placement of that with a set of Khorn bass bins and the corner gain issue in relationship to.

Greg

[Def Leper]

I have an associated question regarding Khorns and room acoustics. I'd like to eventually get a set of Khorns. My room is 13' wide X 23' deep and the horns would go in the corners on the shorter wall. I can adjust my listening position from 10' to 18' away with no problem. On the left side, though, about five feet out from the short wall, there is an opening into the dining room that is 6' wide by 7' high, which essentially breaks the wall on what would be one side of the LH Khorn's reflecting surface.

Is there a minimum corner size needed and would having an opening on one side like this substantially alter the response of the LH Khorn? I know false corners are often built for Khorns and the left corner of my room will almost look like a false corner to the speaker. If there is any chance of a noticable change in response, I could simply install a set of doors to plug this hole.

[formica]

My room is 13' wide X 23' deep and the

horns would go in the corners on the shorter wall. I can

adjust my listening position from 10' to 18' away with no

problem. On the left side, though, about five feet

out from the short wall, there is an opening

PWK recommended 48" of wall... and he recommended this with the false

corners as well. If i recall, the actual mouth of the horn is a

little shorter than that still. The biggest shortcomming of your

room will be the width... as the sweet spot is technically only 6'6"

and not 10' from the front.

OTOH I have one pair of Khorns on a 13' wall in my living room, and I

still prefered their sound over Cornwalls in there. Imaging isn't

as good but frequency responce is better.

ROb

[JJkizak]

K-horns work best on the long wall with a center channel. The minimum accepted corner wall length is 4 ft. but mine has an open doorway on the one side leaving me with about 2 ft. on one wall past the speaker or about 4 ft including behind the speaker. But what it comes down to is whatever floats your boat.

JJK

[D-MAN]

The minimum amount of corner separation for Khorns is dictated by the 45 degree fixed angle of the top cabinet and where that intersects in the sound path to the listening position, that is the "sweet spot" for the listening position.

The problem that that creates is that the listening position moves closer to the front the closer the corners get to each other, and you all know what horns sound like when you are too close to them! Something to be avoided, that's for sure...

The geometry of the Khorn IS the main limiting factor. They can go on either short or long walls, there is no fixed rule. Only considerations....

DM

[steamer]

The minimum amount of corner separation for Khorns is dictated by the 45 degree fixed angle of the top cabinet and where that intersects in the sound path to the listening position, that is the "sweet spot" for the listening position.

The problem that that creates is that the listening position moves closer to the front the closer the corners get to each other, and you all know what horns sound like when you are too close to them! Something to be avoided, that's for sure...

The geometry of the Khorn IS the main limiting factor. They can go on either short or long walls, there is no fixed rule. Only considerations....

DM

I assume that limited listening position is not a concern if you can adjust the postitions of the mid/high horn as in my case with the 511/902 operating in a 2way.

Greg

[lighting guy]

right Steamer,

I've separated the top cabinet from my bass bin and rotated it to the listening position. Looks a little funky, but does the trick!

[PrestonTom]

The minimum amount of corner separation for Khorns is dictated by the 45 degree fixed angle of the top cabinet and where that intersects in the sound path to the listening position, that is the "sweet spot" for the listening position.

The problem that that creates is that the listening position moves closer to the front the closer the corners get to each other, and you all know what horns sound like when you are too close to them! Something to be avoided, that's for sure...

The geometry of the Khorn IS the main limiting factor. They can go on either short or long walls, there is no fixed rule. Only considerations....

DM

DM is certainly correct. This is a point that many folks ignore or avoid. You really do want to be on axis with the face of the K-Horn so that the cabinets are at a +/- 45 deg angle with the listener. It does make a difference. I appreciate the mods at "toeing out" the cabinet top in order to mimic this. In my case the set up would look to funky...

Good Luck,

-Tom

[artto]

I'm so sick of this particular subject it makes my head spin, but I sincerely believe you need some guidance Steamer. You have a lot "ideas" which I'm sure you feel are not without merit, but to make a very long story short, IMHO you've got a of lot things confused, and are missing a few "parts" to the equation. If you want, email me and I'll try to explain as time allows.

Def Leper, don't bother, it's not the right thing to do (Khorns on a 13' wall). And I'm afraid if you put them on the long wall, your room geometry basically puts your "sweet spot" up against the back wall, also an undesirable condition.

Come folks, some of you have got to let go of your ego. What some are trying to do is like trying to put an Allison aircraft engine in a Mini Cooper. Yeah, it can be done, but whats the point? If you just want bragging rights or something then by all means do it. But you're not going to get anywhere near the performance that you can, or should, or more importantly, most likely expect. There are, if not "better", at least more "appropriate" alternatives.

[Def Leper]

Artto, I understand where you are coming from, but I'm not sure I understand why Khorns must have such a rigid installation. (besides the obvious need to have them couple to a corner.) After all, the tops upbolt and the drivers can be rotated in any direction. The bass coming out of the bass bins seems like it should be largely undirectional anyway, so simply re-angling the horns for different seating positions should solve the problem of room dimensions. Also, I'd enjoy tackling the challenge of building a new cab top to accomodate re-angled drivers.

Putting the bass bins on the long side corners in my room would actually solve one problem-- I have continuous walls on the preferred side, ideal for the bass bins, and the seating would be able to face the fireplace, which we normally prefer. It would create a different problem, though-- A center channel speaker would end up in the fireplace. The solution here might be to put the mid and high drivers in separate cabinets mounted inboard 6' of the bass bins, leaving about 10' of separation between them, Has anyone ever tried a split configuration like this? In my experience, the mids and highs fix the sound stage, and my only problem would be the time delay introduced by having the bass bins separated. Than can be corrected with biamping with some time correction in the crossover. The mid and tweeter horns would be housed in a cabinet similar in size to a Bose 901, and on stands that would allow the height/tilt and angle to be set just about anywhere.

I'm not trying to be heretical about this but I can and will get a set of Khorns someday, and I see no reason why speakers like this can't be enjoyed in a tiny 13' X 23' poor person's living room.

[colterphoto1]

Mr. Artto,

What then, would be rough optimal and minimal room dimensions for a pair of Khorns? Given, that the desired position for sweet spot for listening would be between midway and 2/3 way back from the front wall (I'd consider this to be fairly standard among most listeners and interior decorators)

Thanks - I've got a line on a pair and wouldnt' want to even attempt to squeeze them in a Mini-Cooper. Good analogy btw.

I take it that this has more to do with room geometry and layout for the Khorns than the old wives tale about 'you need a big room to hear big bass' (or feel free to comment on the fallacy of that arguement if need be)

Michael

[IndyKlipschFan]

I have asked this many times.. I know we all have our own wishes...and placement problems too. I agree the tops may be placed where you want them as well. it will, of course, not look as nice. But then again........ it IS about the sound.

Artto...

Take a pair of K horns.. YOU, tell us the right room size wide.... your sitting position back..and ceiling height too. This is for two channel sound, no center for this conversation thread. What is the "dream room" ?

We have some hints of what works from PWK, but I have never seen written papers as to this is/was Pauls perfect room size for a pair of K horns. As much as some of us are fanatics. I know when I built my own house 2 years ago, I might have been persuaded to build such a room if it was the "gold standard" for K horns.

IndyKlipschFan

[DrWho]

Optimal size room for the khorn:

The khorn could use a little bit of room gain starting around 40Hz,

which corresponds to a 28 foot diagonal across the room (front left

floor corner to rear right cieling corner).

Using ideal room ratios of 1:1.14:1.39 (H:L:W) and putting the

listening 1/3 of the length from the rear of the room, the ideal

dimensions of the room become 14x16x19.5 (HxWxL).

Then all you'd need is some acoustical treatment to mate the RT60 to

one of the ideals....with the high cieling it should be rather easy to

implement without intruding upon the aesthetics of the room.

[formica]

The khorn could use a little bit of room gain starting around 40Hz,

which corresponds to a 28 foot diagonal across the room (front left

floor corner to rear right cieling corner).

Using ideal room ratios of 1:1.14:1.39 (H:L:W) and putting the

listening 1/3 of the length from the rear of the room, the ideal

dimensions of the room become 14x16x19.5 (HxWxL).

I would tend to aim just a little lower than 40Hz... and also flip the

room around to have more than 16' for the front, esp if we are looking

a 3 channels or more. Height is the toughest factor...