"Tube" watts....

[meagain]

I can say this re: the VRD's I heard: They have all the bass slam of my Crown. I don't own tube anything, so I have no agenda to "sell" this point. It's just what I heard.

Like I said earlier, I wish I would have spent more time taking in their sound at more moderate levels. This may well be where all the "gains" are to be realized. I'm just not so sure Deep Purple and Black Sabbath need to be "chilled," although I am sure greater gains might be made in the area of easy-listening, classical and jazz.

Jeff - but there's so much between "Jazz brunch crowd" as Duke says and Sabbath. I contend you need to be turned onto some music. And it's a darned shame you don't live by me to bring your Crown over. This would all be settled either way.

[Jeff Matthews]

I can say this re: the VRD's I heard: They have all the bass slam of my Crown. I don't own tube anything, so I have no agenda to "sell" this point. It's just what I heard.

Like I said earlier, I wish I would have spent more time taking in their sound at more moderate levels. This may well be where all the "gains" are to be realized. I'm just not so sure Deep Purple and Black Sabbath need to be "chilled," although I am sure greater gains might be made in the area of easy-listening, classical and jazz.

Jeff - but there's so much between "Jazz brunch crowd" as Duke says and Sabbath. I contend you need to be turned onto some music. And it's a darned shame you don't live by me to bring your Crown over. This would all be settled either way.

I agree on music choices allowing for huge "in-betweens." I have alot of them, but no classical (except ELP []).

I really wasn't trying to settle anything in terms of comparing Crown to this or that. I like my amp like I like my GMC P'up. I know Cadillac now makes trucks in the "luxury" market, but I'm not going to dump my P'up and spend more money. I am content where I am. The post was intended to confirm or dispel a myth.

By the way, did you get all your tube gear up and running? I didn't see any reviews.

[NOSValves]

Just a Panasonic XR50 digital (tripath?) receiver. Two channel mode. Actually 2.1. Digital amps are the future of audio. Imagine how good they will be in ten years if they are this good now.

Try a refurbished XR25. Probably only about a hundred bucks! Almost makes me feel bad that good sound can be so cheap. Watch out for the "this is cheap so it can't sound good reverse placebo thing" if you get one.

Andy

This statement could be dated back to 1968 and change the digital to SS! But guess what Tubes are still here and more popular today then they were 10 years ago by a good margin. Trust me there is no one future for audio. Well maybe for the Best Buy, Circuit City and Kmart crowd there is.

Craig

[NOSValves]

Jeff - but there's so much between "Jazz brunch crowd" as Duke says and Sabbath. I contend you need to be turned onto some music. And it's a darned shame you don't live by me to bring your Crown over. This would all be settled either way.

Lisa,

What ever you do..... do not let Jeff and a Crown amplifier into your home. In fact if Jeff even comes by himself make him let you tie his hands behind his back and then make him sit nicely in a chair. If he is aloud to get any where near the volume control of your system you won't be complaining that your Khorn are sharp on the top anymore. You will however have to be fitted for some hearing aids after his visit.

Craig

[NOSValves]

" Well in my opinion what your describing with this amp is a poorly designed power supply that can not sustain its voltage under current load."

Not at all. If the amp was designed to be a 60w continuous amp with dynamic power beyond that this is how you would design it. You claimed SS has no dynamic power above its rating, you were wrong. Deal with it and learn something.

No that is side stepping gibberish response and you know it. Quit answering questions with questions.

Answer the question If the above described amp could indeed hold its voltage when driven hard what would happen to its sustained power capabilties. Please don't come back trying to play stupid again like below.

Why can't your tube amp sustain its 'peak' power?

My amps hold there voltage to within 1% of steady state at full power the amps can not make any more the 60 watts except for transient peaks and never would without changing the voltages present in the amps and the output transformer. They is almost NO voltage drop in my amplifier. I do not list any peak performance spec on my amp because I really have no realible way to measure it.

"In reality the same amp with a upgraded and adequate power supply would surely be of higher sustained power and your dynamic headroom would be no more."

Doing the above may or may not result in an amp with a higher continuous sustained power. You could easily run into other problems (thermal) in just bumping up the PS.

I'm not asking about reliabilty just the basic power results!! I'm sure more changes would be required to sustain reliabilty at the full power capabilities of this amp.

I know one thing no self respecting modern Hi End audio designer would build an amp with a power supply that loses supply 25% of it's voltage when drived to full power. Bean counter amp for sure. They just took the bean counters weakness and advertised it has a advantage happens all the time. Looks to me like you swallowed it hook line and sinker to boot.

Shawn

[m8o]

Okay. A watt is a watt, and we got into whether the sound produced by a tube is better than that of SS. Sounds like vanilla vs. chocolate again.

But, in seeing some comments re: the Fisher 500c (or whatever model) as not having enough bass makes me think those who made that comment are or might be leary that tubes in general might lack sufficient bass. That could be true, except everything has exceptions, and it all depends on your price-point.

I can say this re: the VRD's I heard: They have all the bass slam of my Crown. I don't own tube anything, so I have no agenda to "sell" this point. It's just what I heard.

How true again; seems I'm always agreeing with you... [Y] I'll mention another exception I know of. My Audio Research Classic 150 Monoblocks. If you ever get a chance to audition them or 120s (I think there might be a 200?) give them a listen. They too are hybrid amps, but unlike my Butlers which are the 'traditional' hybrid tube amp that uses a tube voltage amplification stage and bipolar or mosfet current follower output stage, the Classic 150s are a solid state input stage and tube output stage. They are so incredibly authoritative; I used to use them with my Martin Logan Sequel IIs. And no, they ain't cheap! (bought them used @ aoub t 1/2 price) Perhaps I should branch off a thread asking what the most and least expensive watt is in relation to how good that watt is... []

[pauln]

Has anyone ever wondered (perhaps after spending a while in a thread like this one) why those unfortunate individuals with the technical background and experience of children should be suffered to post what are quite honestly 'dumb questions'?

Physists and philosophers don't argue with three year olds about the nature of ultimate reality - Why are serious music listeners with decades of carefull audio experience arguing with those who are not blessed with the capability to discriminate differences and who make provocative but inane assertions as 'a watt is a watt'?

[NOSValves]

http://www.rocketroberts.com/techart/powerart_a.htm

Interesting read! In one way or another everyone posting in this thread has been wrong going by this article.

I like this future topic he has listed, But realize this guy is strictly dealing with SS amplifiers.

What is dynamic headroom???: Things to write about: ability of amp to put out more power for a short time due to a loosely regulated power supply; amps with tightly regulated supplies have little or no dynamic headroom

[NOSValves]

Has anyone ever wondered (perhaps after spending a while in a thread like this one) why those unfortunate individuals with the technical background and experience of children should be suffered to post what are quite honestly 'dumb questions'?

Physists and philosophers don't argue with three year olds about the nature of ultimate reality - Why are serious music listeners with decades of carefull audio experience arguing with those who are not blessed with the capability to discriminate differences and who make provocative but inane assertions as 'a watt is a watt'?

You have a point for sure.

[3dzapper]

"Perhaps I should branch off a thread asking what the most and least expensive watt is in relation to how good that watt is... "

It's a lot cheaper to build a mediocre 100 watt amp than it is to build a high quality 3.5 watt powerhouse.

Rick

[NOSValves]

"Perhaps I should branch off a thread asking what the most and least expensive watt is in relation to how good that watt is... "

It's a lot cheaper to build a mediocre 100 watt amp than it is to build a high quality 3.5 watt powerhouse.

Rick

Both being tube based? I would have to say the price point wouldn't be all that different mediocre 100 watt to quality 3.5 watt. No matter what it costs bucks to build 100 watt tube amp at least if both were produced on a fair playing field in the US. I would bet the 100 watter would cost more then the 3.5 in parts alone.

Craig

[sfogg]

"Answer the question If the above described amp could indeed hold its

voltage when driven hard what would happen to its sustained power

capabilties. Please don't come back trying to play stupid again like

below."

I did answer the question.

You look at it as a negative... that the amp could be a higher powered

amp with a larger power supply. (and many other changes you ignored

originally)

That is one point of view.

The other point of view is that it is a 60w amp with a larger PS then

needed for a 60w amp that can allow for dynamic peak power.

Why would someone take the same PS and stiffly regulate it to make a

60w amp with no dynamic ability? That makes no sense. That is why few

SS amps regulate the rails... it doesn't make sense to do that as you

take away dynamic ability.

" the amps can not make any more the 60 watts except for transient

peaks and never would without changing the voltages present in the amps

and the output transformer. "

So explain how it can hit 120w at all?

Oh... thats right. You don't have a clue if it can do anything above

60w. You have no idea how to measure anything above continuous power

ratings. So any claims of transient ability WRT to your amps are based

on what exactly... fingers crossed and wishfull thinking?

Assuming it could hit 120w transient its funny how that if your amp has

3dB of headroom that you see it as a positive. But when a SS does the

same thing it is a sign of cheap/bad design in your eyes. That makes

sense. Glad to see you are as consistent as always. By your own logic

then your amp must be a 'bean counter amp for sure' since you didn't

put in the proper transformers and such to allow the amp to run

continuously at 120w instead of just perhaps hitting it for brief

peaks. (Your logic, not mine... argue with yourself if you disagree

with your own point of view)

BTW... guess what... if you aren't seeing voltage drops in your amps at

full power your amps likely have no transient higher power ability. The

whole reason amps have dynamic power is because the PS runs at higher

voltages (and can sustain it briefly at full load) but sag under

constant operation at full load. And amp thats PS doesn't sag is an amp

that doesn't have dynamic headroom.

" I know one thing no self respecting modern Hi End audio designer

would build an amp with a power supply that loses supply 25% of it's

voltage when drived to full power. "

The Adcom was designed by Nelson Pass, guess that means you don't know one thing.

Shawn

[NOSValves]

"Answer the question If the above described amp could indeed hold its voltage when driven hard what would happen to its sustained power capabilties. Please don't come back trying to play stupid again like below."

I did answer the question. NO not really

You look at it as a negative... that the amp could be a higher powered amp with a larger power supply. (and many other changes you ignored originally)

That is one point of view.

The other point of view is that it is a 60w amp with a larger PS then needed for a 60w amp that can allow for dynamic peak power.

Why would someone take the same PS and stiffly regulate it to make a 60w amp with no dynamic ability? That makes no sense. That is why few SS amps regulate the rails... it doesn't make sense to do that as you take away dynamic ability.

" the amps can not make any more the 60 watts except for transient peaks and never would without changing the voltages present in the amps and the output transformer. "

So explain how it can hit 120w at all?

Show me when and where I said my amp can hit 120 watt peaks????? I don't list that spec because I have no reliable way to measure it and really think its not accurately measurable in any affordable fashion.

Oh... thats right. You don't have a clue if it can do anything above 60w. You have no idea how to measure anything above continuous power ratings. So any claims of transient ability WRT to your amps are based on what exactly... fingers crossed and wishfull thinking?

I never said I didn't have a clue how to test It, I said I do not have the gear to test it and I bet you don't either. Come on rocket scientest tell us how you test it in your shop????

Assuming it could hit 120w transient its funny how that if your amp has 3dB of headroom that you see it as a positive. But when a SS does the same thing it is a sign of cheap/bad design in your eyes. That makes sense. Glad to see you are as consistent as always. By your own logic then your amp must be a 'bean counter amp for sure' since you didn't put in the proper transformers and such to allow the amp to run continuously at 120w instead of just perhaps hitting it for brief peaks. (Your logic, not mine... argue with yourself if you disagree with your own point of view)

This discussion was not about MY AMPLIFIER it was about tubes versus SS and the rumors that Tube watts are more powerfull then the same SS watts.

BTW... guess what... if you aren't seeing voltage drops in your amps at full power your amps likely have no transient higher power ability. The whole reason amps have dynamic power is because the PS runs at higher voltages (and can sustain it briefly at full load) but sag under constant operation at full load. And amp thats PS doesn't sag is an amp that doesn't have dynamic headroom.

Tell me something I don't know

" I know one thing no self respecting modern Hi End audio designer would build an amp with a power supply that loses supply 25% of it's voltage when drived to full power. "

The Adcom was designed by Nelson Pass, guess that means you don't know one thing.

So Nelson Pass is a god of some sort. Maybe to you but not to me.

Shawn

In the end you think what hold true to SS amps, power supplies and output is an absolute fact with Tube amps this to me proves your as ignorant about tube amps as I am about SS amps. These are two completely different worlds what applies to one does not apply to other.

Keep twisting your snake riddled trail!!

Craig

[3dzapper]

I was thinking more along the lines of a cheap chip amp v a JFL Horus class with cobalt iron. Even in tube amps, one can buy a 60 watt KT-88 amp complete with tubes direct from China for under $200 (plus shipping). Do you think it rivals yours? No way it can. In materials or sound.

Rick

[NOSValves]

I was thinking more along the lines of a cheap chip amp v a JFL Horus class with cobalt iron. Even in tube amps, one can buy a 60 watt KT-88 amp complete with tubes direct from China for under $200 (plus shipping). Do you think it rivals yours? No way it can. In materials or sound.

Rick

$200 ??? Where ??? Man does that have to be POS or what the tubes would cost more then 50% of the cost of the single mono amp.

Craig

[3dzapper]

Sent you an email.

Rick

[jacksonbart]

I just sent myself a message.

[Hardhead]

It should be a felony to start a thread with this topic or any one of several other topics that have already been beaten to death without achieving any sort of resolution.

[maxg]

"Physists and philosophers don't argue with three year olds about the nature of ultimate reality - Why are serious music listeners with decades of carefull audio experience arguing with those who are not blessed with the capability to discriminate differences and who make provocative but inane assertions as 'a watt is a watt'? "

"....is a watt" was my actual quote - but I assume you are not saying that a watt can sometimes not be a watt?

As a post it was not intended to be inane nor pedantic - merely a part (and therefore taken out of context in your post) of an attempt to explain to someone (Jeff actually) the derivation of the "magic tube watts".

That Jeff picked this up is, I think, I good thing - it is a step closer to the truth, of course, recognising that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing....

[6foot8]

By the way I live in the Orlando area so if you plan on heading to the beach or Disney let me know and I'll even cook some good filets for us...or maybe some crow []

Where are you? I'm in Oviedo and sure would like to come by and hear your rig!

Mike

Hey Mike, I live in Clermont.