Klipsch Modding - Has It Gone Too Far?

[chops]

Thanks Dean and TubeGuy.

See, these are the things I'm wanting to hear. This is why I started this thread.

Sure, I can go through all the thousands of threads, but hopefully this way I can find out ALL of the reasons why these modifications are performed on Klipsch speakers, and have them all listed right here in one place.

I guess my mian this is that I wouldn't be able to bring myself to phycally and permanently modding the motorboard for a new horn. Which I guess even converting over to a CornScala isn't going to help too much if the throat is still 5/8".

See, I didn't know that the smaller throat had more distortion than a larger one. I thought the 511b's were used just because of the way they project sound into the room.

I guess what I'm trying to do here is "justify" doing mods to my CWs without feeling bad about it. If I know what mods should be done and why, then maybe I would be more willing to perform them.

[TubeGuy]

I understand your angst. That's why I saved all of the original parts (even the AK2's).

BTW, after some time living with a mod I convert back to original just to make sure that I moved forward. It's a good reality check. I would have a problem cutting my Khorns. I shudder to think. Would I do it? Yes, if I was thoroughly convinced it was a vast improvement. I would definitely have to hear a mod before I made a move that was not reversible.

I had Cornwalls for a number of years. It was a sad day when I sold them. The caveat was I got Khorns but man, I loved those Corns! Now that is the ultimate mod!

[sfogg]

" i bought them because i liked what i heard. same applies to my modifications. i did not do them because i'm an altec fan, but rather because it sounds better than a bone stock la scala. i'm fully aware that it's not 100% a klipsch speaker anymore, and i don't try to pass it off as one."

Well said!

Shawn

[D-MAN]

P-L-E-A-S-E, all you self-appointed Klipsch-Nazis... and I'm definitely seeing a trend in recent threads concerning this topic...

What EXACTLY is the so-called "Klipsch sound", anyway? The sound of cheap drivers?

Probably going to upset a few, but the cabinets are the only thing worth keeping.

The DESIGN is what is from PWK. The designs (and cabinetry) are pretty much timeless in performance and classic in appearance, to boot.

Those who think that the internal components alone make up the "Klipsch sound" can certainly keep them intact - I won't care in the least. But the one thing I DON'T DO is tell others what they should do - to each his own. It should be pointed out that PWK changed them along the way to remain at a price point, some requiring a change to the design when he switched vendors.

DM

[JJkizak]

DMAN:

What are the exact electronic measurement differences, freq response, distortion, efficiencies, radiation patterens, impedances, power handling capabilities, low power performance, high power performance, temperature & humidity effects, transient responses, resonance variations between cheap speakers and expensive speakers? Do you employ an engineering staff and a fully furnished lab to evaluate your new setups? I paid big money for my speakers so I wouldn't have to mess with those problems. Now if Klipsch offered a fully tested and improved driver kit I would consider that option.

JJK

[johnyholiday]

Speaking on Heritage, it's PWKs' -"OS"-operating system/platform, how

the "OS" is bloated, is for personel taste or sells, an not "The System

Has Failed"

[Audible Nectar]

You think these opinions are testy? This is NOTHING. Try owning a vintage McIntosh, then ask how to update it or make it sound good.

You'll get all range of opinions:

- Rebuild completely

- Leave it original to keep it sweet sounding and to retain collector value

- Use NOS brand tubes only

- McIntosh designed them so tubes would affect sonics little, so any respectable tube will do - that tube rolling doesn't matter much

- If you rebuild/recap completely, you get publically flogged for "hacking your Mac" and reducing collector value - if you don't, you get publically or privately flogged for using "sludge caps" that cannot pass signal.

If you rebuild and don't use NOS parts, you get whacked again.

I also found out that many who did rebuild were reluctant to say what they used, for fear of the floggings from the naysayers (aka "cap wars").

So if you are one to be easily swayed, made unsure of the legitimacy of, or one to be made unsure due to a variety of opinions, vintage McIntosh owership is not for you. The only thing that helped me make any informed decision was hearing the original and various rebuilds with various parts packages. That took over two years to finally get the proof and informations needed - but I am finally able to make some kind of informed decision.

But I sure got my head spun in the process beforehand.

So don't worry about the "political" ramifications of altering your Klipsch. You Klipsch modders got off easy. Try owning a vintage Mac and asking how to mod or update it, then you'll discover the politics of "original vs. modded" in a big hurry.

Bottom line - do what sounds best to you, and what gives the most comfort level for YOU.

[chops]

That's funny. I would think (at least as the CWs are concerned), the cabinets would be the weakest link more that the drivers. Granted, it's a well made enclosure and fit and finish are pretty decent, but if it were me, I would have either put in some decent cross bracing or even stepped up to 1" stock with moderate bracing considering the sheer size of the panels used.

And as to the rest of your post, I'm not going to sit here and explain my point behind this thread again. I've already done that in two other posts.

[chops]

You think these opinions are testy? This is NOTHING. Try owning a vintage McIntosh, then ask how to update it or make it sound good.

You'll get all range of opinions:

- Rebuild completely

- Leave it original to keep it sweet sounding and to retain collector value

- Use NOS brand tubes only

- McIntosh designed them so tubes would affect sonics little, so any respectable tube will do - that tube rolling doesn't matter much

- If you rebuild/recap completely, you get publically flogged for "hacking your Mac" and reducing collector value - if you don't, you get publically or privately flogged for using "sludge caps" that cannot pass signal.

If you rebuild and don't use NOS parts, you get whacked again.

I also found out that many who did rebuild were reluctant to say what they used, for fear of the floggings from the naysayers (aka "cap wars").

So if you are one to be easily swayed, made unsure of the legitimacy of, or one to be made unsure due to a variety of opinions, vintage McIntosh owership is not for you. The only thing that helped me make any informed decision was hearing the original and various rebuilds with various parts packages. That took over two years to finally get the proof and informations needed - but I am finally able to make some kind of informed decision.

But I sure got my head spun in the process beforehand.

So don't worry about the "political" ramifications of altering your Klipsch. You Klipsch modders got off easy. Try owning a vintage Mac and asking how to mod or update it, then you'll discover the politics of "original vs. modded" in a big hurry.

Bottom line - do what sounds best to you, and what gives the most comfort level for YOU.

I used to be a Mac owner. In fact, my very first eBay purchase was a MC250 right after I acquired the CWs from my father. It was a nice match, however not as nice of a match as my Pioneer Elite receiver is oddly enough. []

[D-MAN]

DMAN:

What are the exact electronic measurement differences, freq response, distortion, efficiencies, radiation patterens, impedances, power handling capabilities, low power performance, high power performance, temperature & humidity effects, transient responses, resonance variations between cheap speakers and expensive speakers? Do you employ an engineering staff and a fully furnished lab to evaluate your new setups? I paid big money for my speakers so I wouldn't have to mess with those problems. Now if Klipsch offered a fully tested and improved driver kit I would consider that option.

JJK

I paid big bucks for mine, too. Which pair sounds better? I can guess at your answer.

DM

[garymd]

I think many have gone so far overboard they probably don't even remember what their speakers originally sounded like. If that's what they like, that's their business. Personally, I love the original Klipsch sound which is why I've kept my original drivers. Crossovers are a different issue IMO and I'm glad I updated mine. I improved my speaker's performance and still kept the "Klipsch sound."

To each his/her own.

[Deang]

If you stay with phenolic diaphragms it still sounds like "Klipsch". I have to say, I get a big kick out some you defending higher distortion and reduced clarity.

[tofu]

DMAN:

What are the exact electronic measurement differences, freq response, distortion, efficiencies, radiation patterens, impedances, power handling capabilities, low power performance, high power performance, temperature & humidity effects, transient responses, resonance variations between cheap speakers and expensive speakers? Do you employ an engineering staff and a fully furnished lab to evaluate your new setups? I paid big money for my speakers so I wouldn't have to mess with those problems. Now if Klipsch offered a fully tested and improved driver kit I would consider that option.

i know this question wasn't directed toward me, but i feel the need to chime in.

why exactly are you so intent on having others tell you if your speakers meet their approval or not?

can't you tell for yourself if something sounds better or worse? who cares if klipsch agrees with your modifications or not.

and what's the big deal with all of these paper specs (freq response, distortion, efficiencies, radiation patterens,

impedances, power handling capabilities, low power performance, high

power performance, temperature & humidity effects, transient

responses, resonance)? i prefer to listen with my ears, not look at a piece of paper and use my eyes to judge components.

[Deang]

The measurements are critical, and correlate directly to why we hear what we hear. They keep you out of trouble too, and let you know when you've just done something really stupid! In the end, the ears have the final say, but as I've found out myself more than once -- they are easily fooled. Now, with that said, consider that with everything Klipsch has at their disposal these speakers have remained virtually unchanged in 40 years -- yet the pro/cinema line marches on. Where do we find the Jubilee? Wake up.

The ear is much more sensitive to distortion artifacts than it is to small anomolies in FR response. I listen to horns for their low distortion, dynamics, clarity and realism. If elevating those four elements means some sacrifice in the other parameters -- so be it.

I recently set up my K-401/K-55-V/K-77-M configuraton -- and though it sounded good, I definitely didn't find the sound on the same level as what I'm currently using. Sorry to disappoint.

[J.4knee]

I agree with Dean my current set up sounds better after the mods than before. I have owned my La Scala's for over 20 years and still am a little foggy on that "Klipsch" sound thing that some of you feel we have left behind. If your talking about effortless solid dynamics, low distortion, imrpoved clarity and realism I am solidly in Dean's camp on this. To me my modified La Scala's still sound very much like Klipsch La Scala's just a step up in clarity and dynamics. To me the music just seems more complete.

[garymd]

All I meant was that I seem to prefer using my stock Klipsch drivers after hearing other options. I think people should mod their speakers if it makes them enjoy the music more. Go for it. Just don't tell me I should like something I don't. If it's distortion then bring it on![]

[chops]

So far, one of the major things I notice that keeps popping up is the midrange. I have read that the throat size introduces distortion, but I also have read that the horn size itself hurts the sound. I also have read (right here on this page) that the phenolic diaphragms contribute to the distortion.

Apparently, this is a large enough problem with the Khorn, Scala & Belle since they all use the same horn, but since the CW has the much smaller horn, it must really be bad.

A)Now is this distortion only at high volume levels where the sound actually starts getting "harsh", or is it present at all volumes?

B)Is it that little bit of "grittiness" in the background of some intruments and vocals at moderate to loud volumes that I hear?

C)Short of making permanent modifications to the loudspeaker's motorboard (aka - CornScala), can one use a different kind of midrange driver on the existing horn to lessen the distortion level (harshness, grittiness)? I'm thinking somewhat in the lines of what Bob has done by using a different motor/same horn for the K77/CT125 mod.

D)In performing any midrange mod, would it be just as much noticable at low volumes as it would be at higher volumes?

On a side note, I must say that the one single best mod that I have done for improving the midrange of my CWs is powering them with this Pioneer Elite receiver. I don't know what Pioneer has done with their preamp and amp section, but it helps out on these speakers a lot!

[garymd]

I sincerely apologize for judging anyone's speaker mods. I'm doing exactly what I'm asking others not to do to me. Whatever rocks your boat. I'm sure your speakers still sound like Klipsch, just better to your ears.

Peace to all my Klipsch brothers and sisters and happy listening.[]

[Rocketman4274]

TubeGuy I agree with you.I kept all my original stuff including my AKII network and was just thinking oday about swapping it back to check out the difference.But you know it might be pretty easy to build new hats as I bought Al's complete kit so I would just have to make a top and bottom board for the old stuff and could just swapp hats and the sqwaker driver and not have to mess with all the other stuff.

[TubeGuy]

Rocketman,

A new top hat would greatly simplify the retro, but with AK2's you still have to contend with rewiring the crossover in the bass bin. I reverted to the AK2 after about a year with AL's Universal - I won't bother doing that again. It wasn't the work - it's just that the Universal is so much better. It was a great reality check.

I do think it's important to "go back" to original some time after a mod is done. Given enough time for a mod's wow factor to die down, going back can be very telling. Sometimes you find that the mod was just a sideways move and that the original and mod both have their advantages and disadvantages. The key though is to become as used to the mod as you were with the original.

Luckily drivers are easily changed out, as are most crossovers (AK2 exception) and the ALK Trachorn is about as no brainer as it gets.