Blind Test BS?

[Fish]

I was visiting a site and read a "blind test"thread.There was an elaborate set up etc...to test a cheap avr,one about twice as much and a high end unit,all through the same amp etc..The testers just could not hear a difference in the cheap v high end unit.

I'll be the first to say I have heard cheapo units that sound pretty good(i.e.HK 630/635 @ about $600 comes to mind.But,I can hear a difference in just about every pre or prepro I've ever heard.I confess I may not be able to name them but I can consistantly pick the same units over and over.

I'm sure they were not using a revealing speaker like Klipsch,the difference is just to obvious on Klipsch,imo

Anyway,just wondering if this is a minority or majority opinion.

[Colin]

The double blind tests universally fail with uneducated listeners, once trained what to listen for, most people can pick out the differences, Stereophile can a contest once in which the golden ears did quite well with picking amplifiers, but the public did not, Harmon/Kardon (I think it was them) found that trained listeners are more effective in rating their loudspeakers

[Guest " "]

our family and friends...i would say are on the "can't hear a diff" side.

-wires....no one can hear a diff

-speakers just sound louder or lower....they can not tell a diff in clarity, imaging, dynamic range, etc (imagine a set of 2004 lascala's with a t-350 tweeter and an al-4 xover, sounds the same as a 1978 lascala with stock parts and xovers)

-componets...they can not tell a diff.

in my case...I can always tell you which reciever is my nx-1000 or my ds-tx939.

[Fish]

The double blind tests universally fail with uneducated listeners, once trained what to listen for, most people can pick out the differences

Thats a good explanation of exactly what I think happened in this "blind test"they went in blind.

[Deang]

...and came out blind.

[Fish]

Ha....yes,and now the blind shall lead the blind.There is none so blind as those who refuse to see....couldn't resist.

[BS Button]

OK I'm ready, blindfolded. Let me have it...the test.

BS

[BEC]

But didn't I read somewhere that the blind usually have more acute hearing?

Bob

[Jay481985]

But didn't I read somewhere that the blind usually have more acute hearing?

Bob

Not due to physical matter but through training. Its just the body's way of managing through life. Fine you cannot see, then your body will compensate with being more involved with the other four senses. I mean sight constitues most of normal non hadicapped people's senses. But if you were to say blindfold yourself for a month your body will learn to hear better, smell better all because your body will learn to adapt. Sorta like a violinist that will hear between f and f sharp. Its obviously different when you compare but to the normal person they will probably not be able to differentiate when not told but to the violinist he will be omg omg i just messed up yet everyone in the seats probably will never differentiate.

[Jay481985]

Oh I forgot but I remember one of my classes, Mozart happened to see sounds as colors due to a brain miswiring. He described music according to color with the different notes.

[jacksonbart]

Whats brown and sounds like a bell?

Cow Dung.

[TheEAR]

Its Dr B0$e up to no good again! He tries to prove to the world in blind A/B testing his products will not make one puke.

First let me tell the joker who tries to prove this garbage what I think of them. Any listener with non defective eharing and a trained(undamaged ears)will be able to tell a difference.

The all amps sound the same when not stressed phrase is pure BS and a gross lie. As the load varries and the characteristics of each amp different. So the bogus peons who have no hearing at all are to blame.The tests are flawed and the speakers and rooms used are VERY flawed.

I can challenge any clown who claims otherwise that with my revealing Dynaudio speakers I will hear audible gains in quality with a very well designed upper class amp compared to a lesser unit. And I say right now that NO receiver no matter what YOU have equals my smallest SimAudio Celeste 70W per/channel power amp in quality.

Dr B0$e can take his rubbish to a newbie forum where deaf people abound and poor beggars own garbage gear.

My two cents(worth millions)

[DrWho]

I was visiting a site and read a "blind

test"thread.There was an elaborate set up etc...to test a cheap avr,one

about twice as much and a high end unit,all through the same amp

etc..The testers just could not hear a difference in the cheap v high

end unit.

I'll be the first to say I have heard cheapo units that sound pretty

good(i.e.HK 630/635 @ about $600 comes to mind.But,I can hear a

difference in just about every pre or prepro I've ever heard.I confess

I may not be able to name them but I can consistantly pick the same

units over and over.

I'm sure they were not using a revealing speaker like Klipsch,the difference is just to obvious on Klipsch,imo

Anyway,just wondering if this is a minority or majority opinion.

So they used a bunch of different price point recievers as a pre/pro

powering the same amplifier? If they all sounded the same I wouldn't be

surprised considering the exact same circuitry is being used. There are

maybe half a dozen different chips for manufacturers to choose from and

they all behave pretty much the same (they have to in order for the

dolby/dts standards to exist).

Another point to consider is that many manufacturers put in a lot of

money researching their flagship designs and it becomes more cost

effective to put that same end product into the lower models - just

with less features implemented.

I'm not saying it's always the case, but it does happen so if they

chose the right models I'm sure a lot people would be surprised.

And I still agree with all the comments that have been mentioned...especially with the ear training.

[DrWho]

The all amps sound the same when not stressed phrase is pure BS and a gross lie.

Yet it is also more true than it is false...[]

[Jay481985]

Another point to consider is that many manufacturers put in a lot of

money researching their flagship designs and it becomes more cost

effective to put that same end product into the lower models - just

with less features implemented.

sounds like computer printers where they have the same internals just different parameters and settings (umm expensive printer = usually less ink usage compared to free printer that spews ink to make you pay for ink cartridge)

Also it goes with the car engines, notice most companies share the same engine block/size and differentiate the hp and torque. Funny one was Mercedes SL 55 and E 55. They had to detune the e55 engine due to being faster than their flagship convertible the sl55..... even though it was the same engine they remapped the computer to have less power to claim the sl55 is the fastest.

[TheEAR]

The all amps sound the same when not stressed phrase is pure BS and a gross lie.

Yet it is also more true than it is false...[]

Have you compared A/B speakers(any make as long as they are quite full range and can extend down in the 30's) with a receiver(a high quality one for fairness sake) VS a high quality solid state amp like a Bryston?

The control of tyhe Bryston and the very very clear improved control in the bass is very very real.

In the real world amps are all stressed to a point and performance will deviate from the ideal faster in the lower class products.

To me all these so called blind tests are worth a big fat 0

[djk]

I found 90 out of 100 customers could not hear any real difference, and 9 out of 10 that could always picked the worst sounding gear (un-musical).

This was very depressing.

One of the kids in the service department up-graded from an Adcom to a Bryston 3B for his LaScalas. While the Bryston sounded better than the Adcom, it sounded like sludge in the bass compared to a Leach LSR&D 101. It also lacked detail, depth, and imaging.

The kid that owned the Bryston it liked it better than the Leach. The dark, sludgy sound suited the rap music he listened to.

Adding a few bypass caps to a Bryston can make it sound very similar to the Leach.

[Def Leper]

Most people don't think about this blind test.

Being able to hear a "difference" between components and choosing which one sounds "best" are two different beasties.

Hearing a "difference" is a fairly objective exercise, but determining the nature of the difference is another matter. Is it bass response, clarity, distortion? That's where training comes into play.

Choosing the "best" (or better) is purely subjective. Nothing more and nothing less. Don't fall for the idea that an audiophile can determine what is best for you. When you get the equpment home, the audiphile's ears will not be there. You'll have to listen to it with your ears. Pick equipment to suit your own ears and tastes.

There are so many factors that can also affect the test (placement and setup of speakers, room treatment, seating position) that these tests, in my opinion, are utterly meaningless.

[Jay481985]

I found 90 out of 100 customers could not hear any real difference, and 9 out of 10 that could always picked the worst sounding gear (un-musical).

This was very depressing.

One of the kids in the service department up-graded from an Adcom to a Bryston 3B for his LaScalas. While the Bryston sounded better than the Adcom, it sounded like sludge in the bass compared to a Leach LSR&D 101. It also lacked detail, depth, and imaging.

The kid that owned the Bryston it liked it better than the Leach. The dark, sludgy sound suited the rap music he listened to.

Adding a few bypass caps to a Bryston can make it sound very similar to the Leach.

Music is a generational things. Your parents probably disapproved your music. Remember most of this bass now could not be made back then due to digitally enhancing or digital notes in the song to replicate the bass.

On the other note not everyone has the same reciever or pre/pro due to the same fact not everyone owns the same car. I mean every person has their own niche. Their favorite color, style, fashion, taste in music, food, etc. I know alot of rich folks that are pushovers and basically live a brand name image that do not know why they actually pay more for that item then something signicantly cheaper, only because it is a brand name. They do not quite understand the finer details. I mean everyone will jump for the ferrari even though the corvette and porsche are cheaper and in some instances faster. To his/her own

[oscarsear]

A good A/B test scenario can be set-up which would objectively isolate a particular component. Now the untrained listener goes in and is requested to merely state whether or not there's any audible difference between the systems; not good or bad but distinctive. If they cannot do that initially can they train their listening skills to be able to so eventually? So after 15 sessions they have the AHA epiphany and can reproductively identify system "A" from "B".

Take what we do in our own systems. My spouse had music systems before we met and enjoyed a wide range of music. Subsequently and over time I cobbled together a fairly sophisticated system. She, like many woman, paid little attention to anything other than cost. But when she hears other peoples equipment, even expensive set-ups she can distinguish the nuances of the reproduction. She has been subliminally trained to expect a certain clarity, separation and tone in stereo gear. Has this made any difference in her interest in stereo gear? Nah, but it's nice to have some degree of validation from the Mrs.[]