Mycroft Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 My main listening room has recently been turned around 180 degrees to orient the room properly for a projector I will purchase before too long. This meant that my lovely Klipschorns (and false corners) could no longer be used in this configuration (no, they are not for sale). To compensate for this loss, I've purchased a gorgeous pair of cornwall I's in fantastic condition. I have now been listening to them for a few weeks and have been less than thrilled with their mid and high range performance. It's as if I have gone from "front row center" to somewhere in the back... with a blanket on my head! There's tons of tight bass... too much at times such that upper bass seems to be very rolled off. The mids though is what I really care about and where the khorns excelled and I thought the cornwall would be somewhat similar. Well, I got frustrated enough that last night I hooked up one of the khorns in a temp sort of way just to make sure my mind wasn't playing tricks on me. WOW!! _effortless_ dynamics and tons of detail I had forgotten about. I could suddenly hear the breath of the preformer, the light sound of fingers across guitar strings that were lost on the cornwalls. I had one speaker khorn and the other cornwall so I could go back and forth and sit in front of each and compare and it was no contest.The cornwalls are so much _slower_ and less detailed that I found it hard to believe I had been missing out on so much the last few weeks and not noticed it sooner. Now, I know many of you will say the obvious - get a pair of ALKs. Well, I have them, in both already! I know that Al's networks may still have some breaking in todo, so perhaps this isn't fair to judge so soon, but the difference between the two speakers is far more than any network can make up for. Dropping in Al's network (both built by him, BTW) certainly was an improvement. The bass was a bit tigher and the mids were certainly smoother... but the general lack of musicality of the cornwall still wasn't what I was after. Now, all this said, my first conclusion is that something is wrong with the cornwalls themselves. So, tonight I took the back off of one to make sure that the drivers themselves were not messed with (perhaps by someone who does not appreicate the crisp dynamics that I do?), but I have to say that everything looked bone stock. I have triple checked all my connections and all is in order. I'm really at a loss to explain how the mids and highs can sound so different with such similar configurations, even if the mid horn is a bit smaller. Is this really how a cornwall I is supposed to sound? Would I be happier with a La Scala?? I'd love to hear other opinions. I'd be happy to repeat the experiment for anyone in the SF bay area who would like to happen by. Mycroft (aka Will) PS. I should mention these are 1974 khorns and post 1980 Cornwall I's (as evidenced by label on back) This message has been edited by Mycroft on 11-07-2001 at 03:27 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 Something must be up with your Cornwalls. Personally, not sure why you went with Al's crossover so soon as the Type B appears to be a very natural device and from what I have heard, Al's unit, despite what many say on here, might not be the best option depending on taste. Regardless, it might need a good deal of breakin time. Still, that being said, you should not be getting this type of sound from your Cornwall I. Something must be up as I am getting anything but blanket over the head sound via my 77 Cornwalls with absolutely no mods as of yet. Perhaps something is wrong with the crossover or it needs more breakin time as said above. Are you sure the wiring is completely correct? The highs are very extended and natural depending on source and music selection. I am getting great articulation and ye olde "fingers on fret board" if evident, comes out fully intact with delicacy and body as well. I can almost hear the spit in Ben Webster's sax so my guess is something is a bit amiss in Cornwall land within your abode. khf>s>------------------ s y s t e m Linn LP-12/Linn Basic Plus/Sumiko Blue Point Rega Planet Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Creek OBH-12 Passive Preamp Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks DIYCable Wire - Various 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I Alternate Components: EICO HF-81 - btw, perfect Cornwall match ASUSA A-4 EL-34 UL ProAc Mini-Towers EICO HFT-90 Tube FM Tuner Sumo Aurora Tuner Nakamichi CR-7af>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 Mycroft--Well, afterall, the Khorn is a better speaker. Since the drivers are the same or at least very similar you may be very sensitive to the region up to 600 cycles, a region that is horn-loaded in the Khorn and direct-radiating with the CWs, the Khorn certainly has an advantage in clarity. Perhaps the speakers are defective though I doubt it, I've never known anyone who's "real" Klipsches went bad, they are very reliable. It's possible the aftermarket crossover is at fault or faulty. But you may simply dislike Cornwalls, not everyone likes them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Pidass Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 I'm in Mobile's court. There just has to be something wrong. I'm running stock '81 Cornwalls and absolutely love them. Although they use the same drivers as the KHorns, I don't think even the best sounding Corns will ever keep up to properly setup KHorns. That's like expecting a Heresy to sound like a Cornwall (well not quite). I think your definitely spoiled, however, there's gotta be something wrong with those Cornwalls. Wish I had some suggestions on what it might be. Could be as simple as corroded/oxidized connections. Maybe someone else will have a suggestion for you. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 Will, Sorry to hear about you're problem. First off, the K-horn is a better speaker than the Cornwalls, no doubt. But I've done a lot of listening to Cornwalls, K-horns and La Scalas, and they all have a similar sound. The Cornwall, IMHO, gives a good approximation of the K-horn, especially in the mids and highs. However, the folded bass horn of the K-horn is sweet and the Cornwall just can't keep up, period. However, corner loading of the Cornwall coupled with an amplifier with good damping can REALLY help tighten up the bass - putting it in the realm of sweet. Bass control is VERY important for Cornwall amplification. Also, if you were switching your balance control with a K-horn on one side, and a Cornwall on the other, you're results will be horribly skewed in favor of the K-horn not only because it is a better speaker, but also because it is 5.5dB more sensitive and will play louder with a given input. Unless the speaker levels are equal, we will almost invariably pick the louder speaker. If you want more midrange that reaches deeper, you need to try a "B Network" (not B-2 or B-3). The B-network has 6dB/octave slopes and gives a more midrange foward sound, like the mighty K-horn. The B Network can be built very easily and cheaply. It uses a choke, an autoformer, and two oil filled caps. I've never heard the B-3, but I can definitely hear the difference in a B and a B-2 (B-2 uses 12 dB/octave slopes in lieu of 6 dB/ octave). I personally prefer the more midrange foward sound of the B, others, of course, may not. Note: when going from a steep slope crossover to a gentle slope crossover, you will give up some power handling. Of course, I've never had any problems and I've cranked my Cornwalls plenty. The original, gentle slope crossovers in your 74 K-horns never presented any problems did they? There is somebody whom often posts on this forum that owns both K-horns and Cornwalls (Cornwalls in the bedroom, I recall), and he seems to like both pairs of speakers. Maybe he can shed some light (I wish I could remember who it is). One last thing, anytime you spend years listening to one pair of speakers, you get used to the sound, and it takes a while to adjust. Keep us posted, Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 I'm not a subjective type guy, but . . . . I really like the sound of the three horn Klipshorn type. I've heard a few systems with horn treble and direct radiator bass. They're quite common in PA applications. Somehow, they don't quite sound right to me. It could be frequency response. But I have some doubts. Rather, I conclude that only bass horns integrate well with treble horns. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 Andy Steve P. Look for his system, setup in 2 channel, or home theater, he has cornwalls in the bedroom, and K-horns in the living room! Regards Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 Putting down the cornwalls is acceptable, if you own K-horns! If the K-horns have that much more sound, i know ill be for sure blown out of this room, im blown out of it now! But of coarse, i have 4 cornwalls here! Reading this post, makes me for sure not to buy the K-horns, i wouldnt be able to listen to them! Also these are almost 100 pounds lighter! And easier to place in the room! You caint compare Klipsch, to lower models, if youve owned them for years, in my case, i caint even hear most other models, the only models id hear, are the la scalas, belles, K-horns, and upper end on the heresys! How is everyone? Im here, just looking mostly, glad to see all the new additions to some systems, I just saw a really nice tube amp, moble homeless posted! Got me thinking again LOL! Have fun, and enjoy! Regards Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mycroft Posted November 8, 2001 Author Share Posted November 8, 2001 ok all, I _think_ I may have found a problem. Tonight, I opened them up again and took a good look at the drivers. Here's what I found: K33E K52K K77M From all the searching I've done on google, I've found that the K52K is from the Cornwall _II_. Is this truly so? The serial of this one is 8412252. Was this near the change over to the II and this driver was used in some late model I's? The horn that the K52K is on is marked K600. Now according to this page - http://www.belgaudio.com/kccompon.htm - the mid driver I "should" have is the K55V, same as my khorns! (it also notes the woofer as a K33B, not a K33E as it looks to be marked). OK, so I just went out and dropped one of my K55Vs into the cornwall. It didn't fit! Well, it was close enough, but I could tell that it was hitting the back of the cabinet. I didn't put all the screws in and did only a half arsed listening test. The results are inconclusive, since I didn't do both speakers, only played a few short pieces, and my room is pretty active right now so it was pretty hard to be sure what was different. It seemed better, but that could have been my imagination too. Just to make things clear, I do hear all the frequencies that I should... it's not like the sound of muffled or severely distorted. It's just that these speakers don't sound horn loaded and seem to be far slower and less detailed then the khorns, in that they seem to be very ordinary sounding speakers and not the wonderful dynamics I've been used to. Before, performers stood 10ft tall right in front of me which would practically give me goosebumps on a good recording, and now they seem pretty far away and bored. The bass is plentiful and tight though. I have never thought for a second though that these speakers sounded harsh even on some recordings that some people would have said that about on my khorns. This suggests to me I'm hearing something _very_ different from other cornwalls. How would La Scala's compare to the cornwall and the khorns? I understand they use the same mid horn and driver as the khorns, right? I'm thinking I may be happier with them (and could still use my existing ALK's from my khorns). So, lemme know about the driver thing. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonM Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 Are you sure the squawker was a K52K? I've been inside a pair of mid-1980's Cornwalls, and the squawker was a K57. It's hard to read the blue stamped lettering sometimes - Al Klappenberger had to help me figure out what squawker I was looking at. Regardless, by that time Klipsch had started to transition away from the K55 to alternative squawkers for the Cornwall and Heresy. They are not necessarily better or worse than the K55. In my listening to a pair of Cornwalls versus my K-horns, I thought the K-horns sounded muffled compared to the Cornwalls. The K-horns had that BIG sound, and dynamics in the lows that the Cornwalls couldn't touch, but the mids and highs seemed brighter in the Cornwalls. Could have been the drivers, could have been the Type B crossover that was in the Cornwalls, could have been room acoustics and speaker placement. So many variables. I passed on the Cornwalls - just too big for the space I live in. But I think you should keep experimenting with placement, toe-in, height (put the Cornwalls on stands?), etc. Last resort, look at the mid and tweeter hookups to the autoformer - you can increase their levels by changing the taps that feed them. that can make huge differences in the sound! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 Mycroft, I have never listened to the Cornwalls, but I know the La Scala and (naturally) my Khorns. To these ears they sound VERY similar (apart from the bass, of course). One more suggestion (even if it's rather silly, but it's based on experience: when I got my ALK x-overs I was apparently so excited/curious that I actually managed to mess up the tweeter/squawker connection of one of the speakers. I noticed this only after a few hours when I found the soundstage 'slightly' off-balance. And before that I was actually quite impressed about my 'new' soundstage. So you might consider having a second look. Good luck. Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mycroft Posted November 9, 2001 Author Share Posted November 9, 2001 I'll have to keep this short. I checked the speakers tonight and make absolutely sure that all connections are correct, and they were. I even had someone who is not color blind (unlike me) verify :-) I also checked both mid drivers, and they are definately K52K's. Here's a large, poor quality picture: http://www.anticlockwise.com/gallery/misc/mid.jpg I have another picture with a better flash. This one looked ok on the camera and laptop when I first downloaded it, but looks pretty dreadful on my monitor. Still you can clearly see the markings. So, are these the right drivers or not?? I might have a chance to call Klipsch proper and see tomorrow. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 Lordy, that was a frightening graphic! I attempted to fix it up a bit and make it at least viewable. Well, it looks to even my new-to-the-cornwall-world view as to be anything BUT the Alnico mid horn and apparently the K-52 as said. What year are your Cornwalls? The beast even frightened ME a bit! kh f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 Mycroft, Those are definitely not the right driver for a Cornwall or Cornwall II. The Cornwall came with a K-55-V and the Cornwall II came with a K-57-K. You're not gonna believe this but the KLF-20 and KLF-30 came with the K-52. The KLF-20 has a mid crossover of 750 hz and goes up to 7000hz where the tweeter takes over. The KLF-30 starts at 825hz and goes up to 7000hz. I'm sure this is handled at the network however. Cornwalls are at 600hz and 6000hz respectively. Not quite sure how that happened but I would get those things out of there if I could. Let us know how it turns out for you. BTW, nice picture mobile! Mike ------------------ My Music Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 glad to hear that the Cornwall mids can sound as good as the Khorn - I live with a big old pair of Klipsch Cornwalls Is (serial # 32x57 and 32x58) rated at 100 dB/w/m with horizontal horns. Label says they are type CWO. They include the K-33-E woofer, K-51-V metal mid-range horn and K-77-M metal tweeter horn. They have the B-2 crossover, so I guess that makes 1 and 1/3 models. They can be bright and harsh sounding, especially on older AAD recorded CDs. The cross-over definitely needs upgrading. The letter in the serial number is the year constructed, starting with "A" for 1962 (but leave out O and Q -- those weren't used to avoid confusion with the 0), so "x" should mean they are 1982 models- Make sure that you are playing the Cornwalls at the same sound pressure level as the Khorns. The Khorns are far more efficient than the Cornwalls. Imagine switching between the average cone speaker at 86 dB/w/m and Klipsch horns at 90 dB/w/m. The horns would sound bright, revealing and louder. ------------------ Cornwalls & Klipsch subs; leather couch & feet up; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vacs2000 Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 Hi Sometime ago I have exchanged some emails with the Mycroft and I have visited the shop he bought his Cornwall. So it looks that the owner of the shop (whicj is full of all type of speakers electronics old/new) had put by himself some mid-horns in the pair of Cornwall he had for sale without paying attention to what he puts in..This looks even worst than my "K-33-P" CTS speaker which looks to be a guitar amp speaker in the end.. ------------------ --------------------- Fisher 400-CX pre-amp Fisher 100 (EL37) monoblocks (3) Fisher 101R tuner Fisher 100-MPX Sony SCD-333ES Ampex 1260 reel to rell Garrard 401/SME3012R/Grado Speakers... ------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonM Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 The Klipsch parts list (printed 5/7/01) shows the K52K as the midrange used in the Heresy, Cornwall, KLF20 and KLF30. The Cornwall II is shown as having the K57K squawker. My Heresies have the Heresy II squawker, which just tells me Klipsch had started moving to the new midrange before they made the model change. My guess is that they transitioned among drivers as inventories depleted. I'd bet that the Cornwalls with the K52 driver (good picture!) are as shipped from the factory. Frankly, I've never seen another company use different drivers and crossovers like this without changing the product designation. But maybe (I'm guessing here and looking for comments) the horns have a greater effect than the actual drivers so they figure it didn't matter that much. So I'd look elsewhere for the muffled sound problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 Thanks Jon for clearing that up. I was using the specs from the Classics page for reference. Mycroft, ignore what I said earlier... Mike ------------------ My Music Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eglinski Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 Hi everyone just to pipe in here my completly stock Cornwalls are 1982 made models and have K-55v squakers atached to K-600 horns,B2 network My 1985 K-horms have K-55m squakers andK-400 horns The Cornwalls have K33-E woofers (square magnet) K-horns have K33-E woofers (round magnets) Tweeters are both K-77m square magnets and look identical also Im in the process of installing Alk networks in the K-horns right now I decided to make new Woofer hatch doors out of 3/4 birch plywood,and use T-nuts Does anyone have an opinion about swapping the woofers and squakers I want the K-horns to be the best they can be. Also in my opinion the Cornwalls have a consistant smoother sound with "round" full bass very much easier on ears I also use a sunfire sub with them they dont really need it on music. The K-horns in my opinion sound more dynamic larger soundstage and overly bright,with a lack of bass on many cds But on some "well" recorded cds they sound AWESOME!! I use a Bag End 18" Infro-Sub which I highly recomend to "flesh" (Ray) out the deepest bass and add weight to some music thanks Ed. also please give me your opinions of 'swapping" those squakers and woofers Ill post my reaction to Als networks in my K-horns when I can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBusa Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 I'll take those terrible sounding cornwalls off'n ya hands! How much? ------------------ My system thus far: 1980 Cornwalls (mains) 1990 Heresy II's (rears) 2001 KLF-C7 (center) 2001 KSW15 (Subwoofer) HK AVR 510 (reciever - coming soon!) Kenwood DV402 (DVD) Sony KV 27V55 (9 year old 27" TV) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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