SETs vs old SS � Listening experiments

[Erik Mandaville]

oldbuckster:

There are many single-ended triode users/owners on this forum that both enjoy and appreciate the differences among amplifiers. Like Bruce, I'm one of them. The word 'different' to me is not necessarily synonymous with 'bad,' and I have had a number of higher power push-pull tube amps that sounded incredible. For home theater, I find higher power helpful, but the 300B amps I'm using right now for both stereo and surround sound have been very satisfying. It's based on an experimental input/driver stage I have been thinking about for awhile, and I have been pleased with it -- so much so that I haven't been using anything else for a few months.

I have also had several Transcendent Sound SE OTL (output transformerless) amplifiers here for construction projects, and this amp is really unique sounding, with amazingly good bass performance for a ten-tube amplifier (20 tubes for a pair of monoblocks). As a stereo amplifier, the SE OTL can boast of only about 1.5 watts, which I'm sure doesn't seem like very much, but it was capable of filling our listening space with very clean and good sounding music. I have a couple of friends that use a pair of them as monobocks, which I have also had here for awhile, and the sound was stunning. The 45 triode is in a similar category in terms of power, and the Welborne Labs DRD 45 amps are also really good. The pair I had here seemed to have more air and a sense of immediacy than our 2A3 amps, although this difference may possibly have been associated with somewhat lower output in terms of bass response. I could be wrong about that, but that may have been the case. Single-ended 2A3s and 300Bs are actualy capable of very respectable bass response, and I would say, too, that I have heard somewhat 'tighter' bass from amplifiers with more power -- such as PP 6L6s and some others I"ve heard. Those had outstanding bass impact...............but, and this is important to me...........at a cost of what I thought to be a slight compromise in midrange and HF quality. Every time I go back to my SET amps, I am always so captivated.

It's fun to try different amps, and really the only way you can find out for yourself -- what works best for you, for the type of music you like, the way you like to listen to it, and for the room you listen in.

I was just communicating with a friend recently about all of this, and this guy has been a fan of triode amps for over 50 years. This person also happens to love the Marantz 8B (which I have to own some day!).

There is no rule, law, or requirement anywhere that one must only choose one type of amplifier. One of the best amps I have heard recently is a 3 channel Teac digital amp, about the size of the shoebox -- though probably not as heavy.

It's okay to like more than one kind of -- thing, whatever it is.

Erik

edit: As someone who loves the low power triodes, I also very much liked a Baldwin organ amp I had that was much more powerful -- an excellent and truly antique amplifier that formed the basis of my next construction project. The whole thing, to me, is an exercise in compromise; and finding the reproduced coloration of recordings that is most pleasing to my ears, not those of others.

[pauln]

Hang in there <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />OB, no thread is all wheat and no chaff... the wheat is here if you read for it. Some places in the web have a function which allows one to exclude the posts of certain members that one has decided don't add value, or are abusive, contrary, etc. I am very glad that is not the case here.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Over time I have come to know some of the posters here to the point that when I see their names I might think to myself, "His post will be informative, I'm looking forward to reading it"; or "There is so and so again, this should be interesting..."; or "Oh no, not him. I'll bet his post really stirs things up." Many times my first expectation is wrong, which may be pleasing or disappointing.

Either way, I like the mixing of opinion in this thread - all I really hope is that people describe in plain language what they hear, how they hear it, why they like or dislike it, how what they hear compares to what they think it should sound, and what kind of system was used to make the sound. It is in this way that one may compare their own listening habits and preferences to others and make informed inferences about what kind of systems might be enjoyable to themselves.

With this approach, it is not sufficient to just make a declarative assertion about a class of operation, topology, or design. The assertion should be accompanied by reasonable supporting observations, evaluations, and listening measurements. The more coherent and thoughtful these are the better the case made.

When I read a contrarian view, I like it because I myself hold contrarian views from may here - but I feel that when I present these views I am obligated to also portray my thinking that supports my view - observations, perceptions, and attempts at sensible explanations.

This thread is actually quite typical in drawing differing opinions and I still like the way it is going - and it does not seem to have approached any resolution yet. I don't expect agreement; I hope to learn more about what others experience and what is behind that.

\Pauln

[Parrot]

[Give it a rest. You must believe that if you continue to repeat false, and negative statements about SET amps, people will start to believe them. That continued repeating of false statements was the White House strategy for it's sale of WMD, which we all know you bought, and now all know to be mere propaganda. Your anti-SET campaign will suffer the same fate. That's why I continue to encourage individuals to educate themselves by reading and use of the internet to obtain a more balanced perspective, upon which, they can base and pursue a future purchase.

This is too funny! [] I have to give you credit for linking SET to terrorism but I find the comparison more than a little strained.

The reason I am negative about nearly all the SET amps I've heard is because they are lame. The 15W one I heard earlier this year at AKFest was pretty decent although not my cup of tea either, but at least it didn't fall flat on its face like its lower powered brother.

I am also not against SET12's amp either, as I haven't heard it; if you were a careful reader instead of a propagandist, you'd know that.

As for your false statement that I am making false statements, what are these false statements specifically?

[Parrot]

Well this experiment has turned to CRAP............Why don't you guys have a DUEL and the winner gets to pick what's best.......................Keep Your SETS, if you cannot make a point with out the BS, insults, and NON-facts, why would anyone believe SET is best......Information is better than insults............Boy, I'm Glad I'm Dumb.........SS RULES

It's interesting that the SET guys never show up at Klipsch get-togethers. It's make you think that they know that their amps would not impress.

OldBuckster, SET fans are kind of cultlike in their intensity. They had to be split off into their own section at audioasylum because they were causing so many arguments with people who used other amplification. Now I guess they are reasonably happy, in their own little isolated world with no one disagreeing with them (on the essentials).

[Parrot]

OB,

I think the point is that different people like different things. SS can be great, PP tubes can be great, SET tubes can be great. Trashing ALL SET amps (as parrot continues to do) doesn't really help anyone... as it is just his opinion.

1) I do not trash ALL SET amps.

2) Opinions are different than facts. My opinion is that I do not, generally speaking, like SET amps. My opinion was reached by observing certain facts that have been mentioned previously: SET's lack of full range response, its lack of authority, its limiting/clipping behavior.

If I save one soul from making the terrible mistake of buying into SET, I will have helped the world.

[oldbuckster]

ERIK, I do understand exactly what your saying, and I appreciate the fact that you make your point without being rude about it. I have been playing with stereo for many years, but my degree of involvement is no where near what yourself and others have commited to. You have a deep technical understanding of what you speak about, I on the other hand do not. I was (am) trying to gain some knowledge, but it's hard to do between insults and jabs, all I wanted was to maybe learn something about SET, and compare vs. the SS units, how better to gain some knowledge? Reading highly technical articles does nothing for me, I don't understand what they are talking about. I guess I thought the forum guys could lead me through this, but I was wrong, again...........Every one should use ,or do what is best for them and their systems...........Myself, in the end I should stick with SS it is all I need, I get lost when you guys start talking about this tube, and that tube. I guess old Sly Stone was right:"Different Strokes for Different Folks".......................

[coda]

I think Paul meant to say the SET Asylum, DIY Tube Asylum, and High Efficiency Speaker Asylum are all considered "Specialty Groups" at the Audio Asylum, and that each was a result of an enthusiastic following.

Placing a caveat is wise for any component that may be considered as a purchase unheard, Klipsch included, in the event the local hi fi shop doesn't stock it for an audition. As it turns out, the SET amps favored on these forums are actually sought after and are VERY easy to resell, so the risk of trying one out of curiosity seems rather slight in my opinion.

If we allow others to limit our freedom of choice we will surely turn into a dumbocracy.

Isn't that worse?

[pauln]

OK, so back to our story

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Listened to the Pioneer some more late last night I still like it. This is a good amp. It is 50 Watts/channel, but it is not really a lot louder than the SETs when both are up to about 1/3 on the volume. It does have a different kind of sound, though. One way I might describe the difference is like this: Imagine that what listeners call the sound stage is referenced to the back wall. Im using the back wall as a plane of departure from which I try to hear and locate what I hear. The Pioneer portrays the overall sound from the back wall. The different frequency bands seem to level out with the bass across the bottom layer, the mids across the middle and the highs across the upper middle of the wall. Basically it portrays a wall of sound that is fairly flat that is, the depth or thickness of this wall is about four feet I would estimate. Essentially, all the instruments are spread within this four foot deep volume against the back wall. The important thing about this is that all the non musical parts are there, too the minor hiss and noise and rumble sounds not part of the music reside in this same space against the back wall.

I find this is quite different from the portrayal from the SETs. The SETs dont seem to know about the back wall. The minor non musical sounds tend to seem to have a vertical plane of location near the back wall, but the actual sounds of instruments distance themselves from the wall, mostly in front of it, but some spread around including behind it. This separation of the music from the non music sounds makes it much easier to hear through the noise to the music. Maybe this is what some mean when they say that the SETs draw them in or that the sound is intimate. If does definitely seem to make the illusion that real instruments are present much easier to perceive and believe. Another way to say it is that the sound is more three dimensional within the sound space. This is part of what some call the SET magic the credible illusion of real instruments in space imaging.

I have done a laborious series of functional testing with the wayward Yamaha to find out where the problem is coming from with the funky sound. I wont detail the series of connections and reconnections I have performed, but the end result is that both the power amp channels are perfect, and both the preamp channels are perfect - trouble is in the phono preamp. Not sure if it is one channel or both yet. This makes sense because this amp, like most on ebay, was claimed tested and it checked out fine. Im sure almost all the ebay audio is tested using CD only. The phono was certainly not tested so no trouble was found. I have been disassembling the Yamaha to get to the phono EQ board Im almost there and will see if anything looks off. We shall see.

\Pauln

[Z4!]

As I said prevously, I think oldbukster has pretty much made his mind up and would be best served by a good transistor based receiver. They are easy to maintain, deliver pretty good sound and are very reliable.

Asking opinons on this forum is basically a waste of time...oldbukster would be better served to invest a few hours of his own time to listen to the various topologies and make his own decisions.

This SET vs. PP vs. SS debate will continue until the end of time. No one topology is 'better' than any other, merely 'different' and each has its own following and its own place.

[arfandbark]

Z4,

I'll ignore the obvious slam regarding Solid State and agree with you about having the Oldbuckster letting his ears guide him.

[steve]

I applaud all the different opinions out there, how else would we know what was available? I, for one, wish I could visit each and everyone of your abodes, and check out what you describe as audio nirvana. Seriously. I'm satisfied with my set up, but I know there's better stuff out there, and would be glad to plunk my hard earned cash down to buy something that would give me an audible, noticeable, better sound! Paul said no SET owners attend the Klipsch get together. I find that unfortunate, as I would love to attend! Not to flaunt my SET, as I know what it sounds like, but to better my understanding and appreciation of other amp topologies! And upgrade to something "better" if it suits my tastes! Not to make excuses, but given the logistics, I'm a little far away. (not to say I won't make it one day!)

One reason I am staying where I am, as stated before, is throwing out a lot of cash for equipment lauded as the "best" and then being disappointed. My case was the new high dollar (to me, anyway, almost 5K) McIntosh tube C2200 preamp so highly acclaimed. I couldn't wait to get it! And, well..it just didn't work out for me. Neither did the Mac MC275..I still like my Assemblage SET a lot better..to others, Macs are the cream of the crop!

So again, it's not if the equipment measures well, has great specs etc. It's what YOU hear. That's been repeated over and over again in this forum. This is a great place to learn things about audio equipment, especially from the more knowledgable members of the forum. That meaning specs, how- to posts, etc. As for the rest of us, non electronics wizards, but love great sound, opinions are appreciated as they open our eyes as to what's available out there.

Oldbuckster, again, don't give up on different amps..sources, etc. I certainly haven't quit..yet. But, don't take a blind leap of faith either without hearing it first!

If I get to make the rounds down south, I'll call upon my fellow Klipschters to hear their systems..after all, we're all looking for music heaven. I want to hear what you hear!

As for you that have found it (and are satisfied) I tip my hat to you!

Regards

Steve

[mike stehr]

"If I save one soul from making the terrible mistake of buying into SET, I will have helped the world."

Hallelujah brother!

[mike stehr]

After my[|-)],it was [O]to go to a [<)]. I drank too and had too many[D]. I also ate too much[pi] and[^]. I seen this girl, who was a real[A]. got a , and gave her a[W] as a[G].

She got [8o|], and say she was with another[Z]. I got[:$] and[*-)], and then vomited on her.[+o(]! She said. She then told me it was [O] to leave. I felt like a[6], and[:-*]in her ear that I was and[]in her ear. She said to[:#], and it was [O] to leave.

I drank more , and ate more[^]. I then drove my[au] into a tree, and knocked a front tire off to the[mo]. I felt [], and started[:'(]. Then I got struck by[li] from the[st].

[SET12]

I applaud all the different opinions out there, how else would we know what was available? I, for one, wish I could visit each and everyone of your abodes, and check out what you describe as audio nirvana. Seriously. I'm satisfied with my set up, but I know there's better stuff out there, and would be glad to plunk my hard earned cash down to buy something that would give me an audible, noticeable, better sound! Paul said no SET owners attend the Klipsch get together. I find that unfortunate, as I would love to attend! Not to flaunt my SET, as I know what it sounds like, but to better my understanding and appreciation of other amp topologies! And upgrade to something "better" if it suits my tastes! Not to make excuses, but given the logistics, I'm a little far away. (not to say I won't make it one day!)

One reason I am staying where I am, as stated before, is throwing out a lot of cash for equipment lauded as the "best" and then being disappointed. My case was the new high dollar (to me, anyway, almost 5K) McIntosh tube C2200 preamp so highly acclaimed. I couldn't wait to get it! And, well..it just didn't work out for me. Neither did the Mac MC275..I still like my Assemblage SET a lot better..to others, Macs are the cream of the crop!

So again, it's not if the equipment measures well, has great specs etc. It's what YOU hear. That's been repeated over and over again in this forum. This is a great place to learn things about audio equipment, especially from the more knowledgable members of the forum. That meaning specs, how- to posts, etc. As for the rest of us, non electronics wizards, but love great sound, opinions are appreciated as they open our eyes as to what's available out there.

Oldbuckster, again, don't give up on different amps..sources, etc. I certainly haven't quit..yet. But, don't take a blind leap of faith either without hearing it first!

If I get to make the rounds down south, I'll call upon my fellow Klipschters to hear their systems..after all, we're all looking for music heaven. I want to hear what you hear!

As for you that have found it (and are satisfied) I tip my hat to you!

Regards

Steve

Very well said Steve!

SET12

[jazman]

Well this experiment has turned to CRAP............Why don't you guys have a DUEL and the winner gets to pick what's best.......................Keep Your SETS, if you cannot make a point with out the BS, insults, and NON-facts, why would anyone believe SET is best......Information is better than insults............Boy, I'm Glad I'm Dumb.........SS RULES

old buckster,

Stay Dumb if that's your decision. Fine by me. As for insults, they did not originate on the SET side. Where have you been??? The point is,... there is no BEST. Each individual has their own requirements based on audio/sonic taste, and musical preferences. Get off YOUR butt and do some research/reading. Then go out and listen for yourself. If you believe SS RULES, then end of story.

Klipsch out.

[jazman]

[Give it a rest. You must believe that if you continue to repeat false, and negative statements about SET amps, people will start to believe them. That continued repeating of false statements was the White House strategy for it's sale of WMD, which we all know you bought, and now all know to be mere propaganda. Your anti-SET campaign will suffer the same fate. That's why I continue to encourage individuals to educate themselves by reading and use of the internet to obtain a more balanced perspective, upon which, they can base and pursue a future purchase.

This is too funny! [] I have to give you credit for linking SET to terrorism but I find the comparison more than a little strained.

The reason I am negative about nearly all the SET amps I've heard is because they are lame. The 15W one I heard earlier this year at AKFest was pretty decent although not my cup of tea either, but at least it didn't fall flat on its face like its lower powered brother.

I am also not against SET12's amp either, as I haven't heard it; if you were a careful reader instead of a propagandist, you'd know that.

As for your false statement that I am making false statements, what are these false statements specifically?

Mr. Parrot,

FACT.

VRD owner sells VRD's because he has discovered preferable sonic characteristics of low powered SET,..............and he is not looking back.

It appears VRD's are the lame amps, and once again, clearly indicates others disagree with you.

Have a nice day!

Klipsch out.

[oldbuckster]

Well this experiment has turned to CRAP............Why don't you guys have a DUEL and the winner gets to pick what's best.......................Keep Your SETS, if you cannot make a point with out the BS, insults, and NON-facts, why would anyone believe SET is best......Information is better than insults............Boy, I'm Glad I'm Dumb.........SS RULES

old buckster,

Stay Dumb if that's your decision. Fine by me. As for insults, they did not originate on the SET side. Where have you been??? The point is,... there is no BEST. Each individual has their own requirements based on audio/sonic taste, and musical preferences. Get off YOUR butt and do some research/reading. Then go out and listen for yourself. If you believe SS RULES, then end of story.

Klipsch out.

Get Off my Butt and Do some research/reading.............Isn't that a kind and warm response.................Read what, technical terms I don't understand.........catch words, that I don't know what they mean........Like I wrote to Erik, some of you guys are way deeper into this Audio Heaven journey, than I am.......You guys have technical knowledge that far surpasses my simple view on things.......Where have I been.......on the outside looking in I guess.......Can't your knowledge be shared without all this petty crap? Don't you think if I knew someone local with a SET unit that I would like to hear it? I have SS, my friend has intergrated Tube Scott, and McIntosh units, so I know about them. All I seek is a little knowledge and some advice, seems to be pretty hard to find around here, unless you agree with the "camp" your asking the question of. I don't understand all the Rancor on this Forum, I am smart enough to know that sometimes discussions get a little heated, doesn't matter what subject.......it happens, and goes away, not here, it goes from one forum to the other, and NEVER stops............Funny thing is Duke Spinner makes more sense to me than anyone in this thread, and his answers are Short, without alot of technical mumbo jumbo.................So, I guess this old fart, who chooses to remain dumb, will keep whatever equipment I own, will just kick back and enjoy what I have, and will try not to ask too many questions about Audio Nirvana, because I guess I'll never get there. I'm very sorry if I caused any of this Horse Hockey because I asked what I feel was a simple question. Funny, I never knew my Stereo sucked untill I came on this Forum.........and Thanks for the lesson I have learned,and all the warmth and understanding displayed in this thread............I'm all choked up.........PEACE

[Duke Spinner]

The SETs dont seem to know about the back wall. The minor non musical sounds tend to seem to have a vertical plane of location near the back wall, but the actual sounds of instruments distance themselves from the wall, mostly in front of it, but some spread around including behind it. This separation of the music from the non music sounds makes it much easier to hear through the noise to the music. Maybe this is what some mean when they say that the SETs draw them in or that the sound is intimate.

\Pauln

Now .... That ... is a great explanation, between the sound of vacuum tubes, and SS, Paul ... !!!

[Audible Nectar]

"The point is,... there is no BEST. Each individual has their own requirements based on audio/sonic taste, and musical preferences. Get off YOUR butt and do some research/reading."

19 pages distilled to this.......might be the most true statement of the whole thread.

I spent considerable time listening to various topologies, even after getting the MC30s. Logged some serious miles doing it, too (although combining Klipsch forum member stops with other travel purposes helps). No amount of reviews help though until you have some point of reference by way of demo. Once you get a chance to demo some of this stuff, the reviews make MUCH more sense, even if the opinions differ.

I'm one who prefers push-pull generally (and the MC30 specifically, and like the VRDs for different reasons), and have spent time auditioning SET....even since listening to these PP amps. The verdict? SET sounds great - as long as you don't need too much volume (over 90db on big Heritage in most average sized rooms). I find the power of typical SET to be insufficient for my use. I would be happy with a high power SET, but that would cost more than BOTH my MC30 pairs did.

Wanna know my "2 channel tube amp no-no"? Solid State rectification (especially on a high end/revealing network). Gimme TUBE rectification, please.

[SilverSport]

what's with the chip on the shoulder for oldbuckster (and I guess me because I seem to be asking similar questions)??? oldbuckster is kidding when he says one is best...I think he knows there is no best except what each of US enjoys best...how can their be a best...best what...some of us actually come one here to learn through others shared experiences...if you care to share them too...excellent...more knowledge for the physchological library...you don't want to share...don't...19+ pages with very little content but a lot of name calling and insults...that tells people a lot as well, don't you think? VRDs are lame amps??? Well all right, perhaps they weren't what you are looking for...as for me...NOSValves VRDs sound pretty sweet and I am glad I took the leap of faith from people here on this Forum (I had never heard them except at 2005 Pilgrimage but did not know which amp was the VRDs) and purchased mine...big cash outlay for some (me) but it was worth it...good luck with your choice.

Bill