Klipschorn Jubilee (Babies First Sounds)

[bodcaw boy]

It's not a CD horn, it's a Tractrix. "Advanced" phase plug or not, it starts to dive pretty much around the same place all high quality 2" exit drivers do.

hey deangee,

it's been cool emailing back and forth with you. i hope we can continue that.

as to cd or not to cd.....cd which is constant directivity, is defined as a horn whose total directivity index remains pretty flat like DI=8 +/- 2dB. using that definition, then the tractrixs i play with are constant directivity. what i begin to notice with cd horns whether multi-equation flare rate horns, biradials or some variant of these, was that although, the directivity index was indeed constant, it did not necessarily equate to constant converage ie horizontal and vertical were constant value +/- some deviation. this is because of the nature of the DI equation. to me it was more important to have constant coverage. because if you have constant coverage then you have a flat directivity index. the reverse of that is not always true.

although phase plugs manufacture as seen some major advances and because phase plugs are just beginning to be understood, they can certainly have an impact on the top end response of a compression driver. another major design change was understandiing how the surround of the diap contributed to the diap motion (coupling) at the top end. BNC was one of the first to see this and introduce drivers that did not follow the traditional rolloff (in fact the initial attempt of bnc to get their drivers thx approved failed because they were too hot on the top end when compared to the standard driver thx used!!!!). One reason for this is the equations themselves. when i started to play with phase plugs the equations were never able to give me what was predicted. so i asked my mentor and Paul said that maybe a couple of things were wrong with the equations. one is maybe their assumptions were wrong and the other was maybe they were overly simplifing the model. that is where i got my knack for changing equations to fit what the curve gave us. bnc figure out that the model for the surround coupling was wrong and so they just did what gave them the curves they were lookinig for because the models would not properly predict the top end.

one other thing that i really can't talk too much about (patent stuff) is that the phase plug is not really doing what it is supposed to be doing. (and oh the 69 (made by another company) is a close clone of the bnc)

berryboy roy

[bodcaw boy]

I'm not sure about Al's comment either. It would be nice if Roy would explain some of the things Al is seeing and doesn't understand -- if not for Al, but for the rest of us. I only have an intermediate understanding of this stuff, but I do know there is more than one way to skin a cat so to speak. It's not unusual to see one person's solution to be seen by another as a kluge -- I see it all the time all over the net. Now, since Al isn't getting any explanations he's forced to draw conclusions based strictly on his own experience -- something I know he wanted to avoid from the beginning. Since none of us here know what Roy's method/thinking/whatever is with those networks -- and can't adequately offer up the explanations on Roy's behalf -- it might be best to avoid any dogmatic opinions either way.

I don't think Al deserves to be slammed any more than Roy does. I do think it's fair to point out that if Al's way of thinking is wrong - it sure begs the question as to why Coytee is so determined to have Al build him a set of ESN's for his Jubilees. He obviously loved them in his Klipschorns. When Mark went down to pick up those same Klipschorns after buying them, and got to hear them before taking them home -- ordered a set of ESN's from Al within two weeks. Do I really need to point out that people around here have been unloading all manner of Klipsch networks for years in favor of his designs. You don't need an anechoic chamber to build a great sounding network.

Al's my friend, but I really don't want to take sides. I'd love to see a collaboration that could possibly advance the state of the art in horn loudspeaker design. I don't think Al will ever admit his networks aren't perfect -- but the thought of hearing them fully optimized using all applicable parameters is, well -- exciting. Because all of the data is intellectual property that belongs to Klipsch, and because Roy works for Klipsch -- I can certainly understand why Roy doesn't want to engage with Al. What a shame.

The mass roll-off will be occuring at the top corner of the frequency response - around 18kHz.

Call me 'Doubting Dean' -- but I don't believe that driver does much beyond 15kHz.

The reason for the raw frequency response of the driver has to do with maintaining a flat power response - same thing as avoiding HF beaming.

That would be a performance parameter determined by the horn, not the driver. Am I really wrong about this?

So with new advancements in manufacturing technology, the K-402 (basically a CD horn) + K69 combo is finally able to achieve a true flat power response.

The K-402 is adverstised as being a Tractrix. Also, it doesn't have the chacteristic slot at the throat section you normally see with CD types.

.http://www.klipsch.com/media/Products/KPT-JUBILEE-535.pdf

And to compensate for the corresponding natural roll-off, the bottom end of the HF section is attenuated to also achieve a flat on-axis response.

This seems to contradict your initial statement, "The mass roll-off will be occuring at the top corner of the frequency response..." IOW's, I'm a dunce and don't understand what you are saying here. It sounds like you are saying the LOWER end of the driver's response is attenuated to maintain flat on-axis response at the TOP of the driver's range.

hey deangee,

you guys are going to keep me up to answer these questions.

I'm not sure about Al's comment either. It would be nice if Roy would explain some of the things Al is seeing and doesn't understand -- if not for Al, but for the rest of us.

i thought i mentioned that i was ought of town. some of this is because i can't answer and others are personal. sorry.

Since none of us here know what Roy's method/thinking/whatever is with those networks -- and can't adequately offer up the explanations on Roy's behalf -- it might be best to avoid any dogmatic opinions either way.

actually its pretty simple. i follow pwk's design philosophies. i designed the network to make the system have a flat power response, with a controlled freq response, with as low as distortion as possible and with controlled coverage patterns. looking at the network on its own is like saying that i don't like the motor in an indy racer because it consumes way too much gas. in order to win the indy 500, it has to consume that much gas.

You don't need an anechoic chamber to build a great sounding network.

yes and no. you don't need a chamber but you need to know how the system is performing.

The mass roll-off will be occuring at the top corner of the frequency response - around 18kHz.

Call me 'Doubting Dean' -- but I don't believe that driver does much beyond 15kHz.

i guess that i will have to call you doubting dean. you would be surprised at what a 3" diap with a properly designed and executed phase plug does at the top end. try 19k, 20K and i have a proto, 24k.....and the 69 close to 19k

The reason for the raw frequency response of the driver has to do with maintaining a flat power response - same thing as avoiding HF beaming.

That would be a performance parameter determined by the horn, not the driver. Am I really wrong about this?

well maybe confused. most 2" throated horns have no ability to control beyond 8k Hz. it is a matter of physics. a good rule of thumb i use 2" throat, 7.5k, 1" 13k. it is the driver and its associated design that determines what the coverage pattern is at these frequencies and as such, a good phase has just taken on the role of coverage pattern sheriff.

hope this helps.

berryboy roy

[Al Klappenberger]

Guys,

Enough guessing about equalization! Here is the computer simulation of the high filter of the network that was posted for the speaker system Coytee purchased. This is assuming an 8 Ohm resistive load for the high driver. Nobody seems to willing to admit what the Zo actually is. All the "bumps" are the two R-L-C networks grafted in parallel with the driver. An explanation is requested. If the response was supposed to be a Klipsch trade secret it should not have been posted here.

Al k.

[bodcaw boy]

I'm basically in Al.K's camp. But I'm not quite sure what is in the camp, entirely.

In my view, the horn is technically pyrimidal. That means the cross section is conical. It does not have a matching section at the throat.

Klipsch calls it tractrix. But that could mean anything. If you play with the tractrix curve you can pick a portion and it will be close to just about any one of the classic curves. Or combinations of them. It is sort of like the curved drawing implement called the French curve.

Back to the issue. A conical horn has a throat impedance which is rising, it doesn't come up to flat level like an exponential. On the other hand, it does have a very good directional characteristic. Like I always say, you have to read Whats So Sacred About Directional Horns. It takes a good matching section to get the CD horn present a relatively flat load.

I have never seen a driver which has a flat response 400 to 15000 Hz on a plane wave tube, which would show its true power output. It is typically an on exponential horn which makes up for some of the roll off, by beaming (controlled directivity).

If you look at the Klispch data for the 402 HF, it is said to be fairly flat output over a wide range. But look at the footnote. That is behind a screen with equalization.

The polar diagrams put up above just show directivity. I'm sure the response has been equalized so all the frequencies look similar in magnitude.

Harping like it do, look at Keele's comments on testing of his CD horns which have good loading because of the matching section. He has to equalize the driver on a plane wave tube to get it (the driver) to have a constant output. When wide band power is put into Keele's horns, wide band power over a constant directivity plot comes out.

In my view, Al's only mis-statement is that the mass roll off is very high. I'll bet it is at about 3000 Hz. He may be right that the upper limit is the point where things really go to heck even with equalization.

Mike is correct in a way to point out that phase plugs help. But I think they only help phase problems.

My guess re equalization is as follows. The driver is going to need a boost at the low end because the horn load is so poor. It may or may not need a boost at the high end. This is because the horn load come up to a level to make the driver happy. This increasing load could balance the mass rolloff. But I'm thinking there could be a need for a boost at the high end too.

Of course this could be accomplished with the passive network to some extent. Passives can't boost output very much. But you can set things up so what needs boost is zero gain and the other points are lossy.

Gil

Gil

hi gil,

just some comments on your post.

In my view, the horn is technically pyrimidal. That means the cross section is conical. It does not have a matching section at the throat.

actually it does. it is a tractrix expansion. i dig that curve, man...

Klipsch calls it tractrix. But that could mean anything. If you play with the tractrix curve you can pick a portion and it will be close to just about any one of the classic curves. Or combinations of them. It is sort of like the curved drawing implement called the French curve.

actually, i call it tractrix, modified tractrix to be more exact because i modify the tractrix equation to get good polars using straight wall sides. if fact, i check each of the tool profiles before the tools are harden so that i can make sure that the curve has remained in tact. in fact i had a vendor do me a "favor" one time, he took out a "bump" in the four sides of the horn. i told him we want those bumps please put them back!!

Back to the issue. A conical horn has a throat impedance which is rising, it doesn't come up to flat level like an exponential. On the other hand, it does have a very good directional characteristic. Like I always say, you have to read Whats So Sacred About Directional Horns. It takes a good matching section to get the CD horn present a relatively flat load.

actually, the constant directivity horns that use slots (exponential), then concial sections and then hyperbolic present the diap with very poor acoustic loading. the exponential section is supposed to take care of the loading but the very abrupt flare change causes some pretty good wave reflections back into the horn. their are some very good papers that analyzed the acoustic impedance of cd horns, one by my friend Dr. John Post.

IIf you look at the Klispch data for the 402 HF, it is said to be fairly flat output over a wide range. But look at the footnote. That is behind a screen with equalization.

that is true but not on these graphs. i will see if i can get a raw driver horn curve. i have been promising to get one to mike tn.

The polar diagrams put up above just show directivity. I'm sure the response has been equalized so all the frequencies look similar in magnitude.

no eq but the programs shows the spl at on axis at 0 db for each data set so that -6 db downpoints can read with no problem.

Mike is correct in a way to point out that phase plugs help. But I think they only help phase problems.

currently very few phase plugs even do that. there are some that are attempting to correct phase to gain amplitude but only noncorrelated noise which is at best 3 db. it should also escort the wave out to the focal point with directivity, coherency and with gain.

My guess re equalization is as follows. The driver is going to need a boost at the low end because the horn load is so poor. It may or may not need a boost at the high end. This is because the horn load come up to a level to make the driver happy. This increasing load could balance the mass rolloff. But I'm thinking there could be a need for a boost at the high end too.

actually, the bottom end is very well defined and needs a cut. a check i use is distortion which is low. there is some boost required because although the phase plug is providing some coherency, is not all in phase but the surround is it trick to having a nice top end.

Of course this could be accomplished with the passive network to some extent. Passives can't boost output very much. But you can set things up so what needs boost is zero gain and the other points are lossy.

you can gain some gain by having the filter have a boost before cutoff and although, i didn't do it on this network, i used to use autoformers in reverse to boost. that worked pretty good.

my comments.

berryboy roy

[Deang]

Outstanding and refreshing Roy. Thank you.

I owe you an apology Who, thanks for your input as well.

Al, can you give us some words to go along with that plot (nice words:) You know, something instead of "it looks like crap" lol. I 'm not sure, but I have a feeling an explanation from Roy might entail giving up some close to the vest data on that driver/horn combination. Don't get your blood pressure up over this -- it's only audio.

[Al Klappenberger]

Dean,

Al, can you give us some words to go along with that plot (nice words:) You know, something instead of "it looks like crap" lol. I 'm not sure, but I have a feeling an explanation from Roy might entail giving up some close to the vest data on that driver/horn combination. Don't get your blood pressure up over this -- it's only audio.

Unfortunately not. I have no explanation for 14 dB of insertion loss at 550Hz except that it is to compensate for an equal and opposite response of that fancy high driver and horn. If you noticed, no frequency response plot has been offered. And since there has been no reponse to the high filter plot. I am thinking of posting the analysis on the low frequency filter even though it is beyond the scope of the discussion at this point. As to giving up any secrets, I think he already has done that by posting that network!

Al K.

[DrWho]

lol Roy, thanks as always for your input. Be sure to brag about your new patents when they come out [][Y]

And no need for apologies Dean - skepticism is the path to true

understanding - or something like that. I forget the actual quote. So

when we gonna have that crossover shootout? I'm still looking forward

to those staples in my forehead [][]

And Al...14dB sounds about right when you consider the polars and how they would affect the frequency response in light

of the 'flat' power response. I am certain that there are a few tweaks

in there for driver non-linearities as well, but it's mostly a function of the type of horn being implemented.

Why are you so adament about ignoring the acoustic behavior of the

driver? What matters more, the acoustic result or the electrical

result? If the system is +6dB at 3kHz with a Q of 3, wouldn't it make

sense to have an electrical filter that is -6dB at 3kHz with a Q of 3?

As long as there are no crazy time-domain issues with the peak (ie,

resonance), then how can one consider the final corrected system

flawed? And if the final system isn't flawed, how can one consider the

individual components as flawed? The individual components are merely a

means to an end. If the end result is good, then who fricken cares

about the electrical behavior?

[mikebse2a3]

Glad your back for a few days Roy.

I might be mixed up here but was it also John Post who wrote a paper about the importance of Time that you mentioned showing to PWK?

I would sure like to read it or any other suggested papers you might know of. so maybe when you have time you could give the Info of where I might find them.

Thanks

mike tn[]

[mikebse2a3]

And Al...14dB sounds about right when you consider the polars and how they would affect the frequency response in light of the 'flat' power response. I am certain that there are a few tweaks in there for driver non-linearities as well, but it's mostly a function of the type of horn being implemented.

Keep in mind also this is in the crossover region and I'm sure Roy's design choices were arrived at by verifying the Acoustical results he wanted in that region. Haven't really thought to much about this but off the top of my head I wonder if it could be part of rolling the response off quicker in the crossover region as well as some possible phase shifting needed based on the drivers/horns and system integration needs.

Why are you so adament about ignoring the acoustic behavior of the driver? What matters more, the acoustic result or the electrical result? If the system is +6dB at 3kHz with a Q of 3, wouldn't it make sense to have an electrical filter that is -6dB at 3kHz with a Q of 3? As long as there are no crazy time-domain issues with the peak (ie, resonance), then how can one consider the final corrected system flawed? And if the final system isn't flawed, how can one consider the individual components as flawed? The individual components are merely a means to an end. If the end result is good, then who fricken cares about the electrical behavior?

Well my thinking is that electrical design aspect is but one part of the total design and the Goal should be to reach a result that acheives the Acoustical Design Goals for the Horn/ Driver and Total Loudspeaker System! To just focus on the electrical aspect will not optimize a particular design! So in this imperfect world Time, Amplitude, Polar Response and Electrical Design must come together to meet the Loudspeaker's Designs Goals and I'll bet there will be some give and take in all Domains to acheive a better system and the Best Designers will have a pretty good understanding of were each can be manipulated within an accepted window of variation and the Tools to (Analyze and Verify) there Design Goals!

The final Proof of any design is in the listening and I would advise anyone who hasn't heard the final design to be very open minded till they have heard it. To praise or condem a design without having heard it is just not wise! I still remember people condeming the sound of the Klipschorn and Horns in General and when asked the right questions you find out that they are just repeating (generalizations and making assumptions) and have never even heard the Khorn as well as very few Quality Horn Systems.

The Jubilee version I have is proof to me that an excellent Two Way System is not only possible but is preferable for many reasons from not just the Loudspeaker Design but also how that Design's Advantages help in its intergration into the Room Itself!

Guys the only thing I can say for sure (realizing this is just one persons opinion at best but still based on experience with both systems) is having owned Khorns for over 16 years and having used them in Three different Rooms of which this last room is the most challenging that the Jubilee without a doubt works/sounds better than I was ever able to acheive before with the Khorns in this room and if you look at the Design Goals for the Jubilee the Reason is Very Understandable to me.

The Best Proof of PWK and Roy's Design Goals is Setting In My Room![][][]

Also Please Remember This Should Be FUN!!! So Please Keep It That Way!

See you later I'm going to Listen to the Jubilees[8] and HAVE SOME FUN![] while my refrigerator/food melts down and no one can come to repair it untill Monday.[]

mike tn[]

[Al Klappenberger]

Guys,

My concern about the 14 dB insertion loss is becasue of several factors:

1- It is poorly done. Look at the impedance. I does not have to go all over creation like that even with a CD horn correction added. It looks just like the kind of stuff I saw dones years ago when I first started with K&L Microwave. You start with a crude approximation of the filter you need an beat on it until it does what you want. I call it "giant thumb engineering"! I used to do it myself before I hit the books to learn how to do it right. You have a box of capacitors of different values and you start experimenting while the filter is on instrument test.

2-It has been stated that the horn and driver is not a CD type horn implying no correction needed.

3-The correction is not flat and smooth. It looks very amateurish. - if this is correct it is opposite to the curve of the driver and horn accoustic output. If its frequency response is like that JUST SAY SO! Show us the curve. The cat is already out of the bag when the network was posted. I am not the only guy on earth who can analyze a passive network with a computer! Go down-load a public domain program called "PSPICE" and analyze it yourself. I'll even send you the net-list for PSPICE if anybody wants it.

4-Two guys here have spent thier hard earned money to buy a set of these speakers. They deserve to know what correction should be applied to their speakers to make them work right. An active processor was recommended and employed and no such corrections have been mentioned. This says both guys are listening to a bad frequency response for the lack of this 14 dB of correction at 550 Hz! I think a 14 dB rise at 550 Hz would sound awfull!

5-Those R-L-C things do more harm than good and are more likey phase correctors than frequency response correctors! Look at the reputation of the "AL" network that came in the LaScala. It uses those things! (Personal opinion). There is also similar stuff in the squawker filter AK-4 nework of the newest Khorn. It too has a big dip in the response. Since when does the Altas PD-5 (K55-x) need that?

AL K.

[DrWho]

Wow - thems some rather bold claims.

Enlighten us Al, how much better would it sound with a perfectly flat impedance response without "CD" and phase correction? What's the "right way" to do it? How much better does it sound? How much does it cost? And how well would this design accomodate the bass bin / HF horn interaction as well as the non-ideal frequency response of the individual drivers?

And how come you aren't using more sophisticated software that takes into account the true electrical behavior of the drivers (measured frequency and polar response in addition to measured T/S parameters)? Surely you don't feel that a resistor or a resistor + inductor is a sufficient way to model the real behavior. So how are you verifying your designs? I certainly don't see an anechoic chamber or even an ETF in your arsenal... []

[Al Klappenberger]

Doc,

I have not attempted to redesign the high filter becasue I am not willing to try to deduce the proper response from the filter presented. I have, however, done a design to correct the low filter. It was just an excercise to provide an improved response, flat impedance and identical insertion phase to the posted one. I will post it now that the subject of what I would do has come up. I am assuming that the frequency response of the Jubilee woofer is as published in the article about it. I don't know what the complex impedance of the two drivers in it is for sure though. This information is the very first piece of information Richard tried to get and was diverted. I did use the optimization section of my software on the woofer driver elements to get the best looking response from the posted design. I think it's about 7 Ohms in sereis with 1.2 mHy. That would be two 14 Ohm drivers with 2.4 mHy voice coil inductance each. That is also fairly close the the measurements I made on the K24 driver in my "Heresy on Steroids" den speaker.

I'll post the response of both designs shortly. I need to play a little bit to get the scale factors the same between the two plots.

Al K.

[mikebse2a3]

Guys,

My concern about the 14 dB insertion loss is becasue of several factors:

1- It is poorly done. Look at the impedance. I does not have to go all over creation like that even with a CD horn correction added. It looks just like the kind of stuff I saw dones years ago when I first started with K&L Microwave. You start with a crude approximation of the filter you need an beat on it until it does what you want. I call it "giant thumb engineering"! I used to do it myself before I hit the books to learn how to do it right. You have a box of capacitors of different values and you start experimenting while the filter is on instrument test.

Al why do you continue to worry so much about the electrical impedance? It is just one factor in the total design. You aren't seeing a complete picture of the system's response by just looking at the electrical response.

2-It has been stated that the horn and driver is not a CD type horn implying no correction needed.

It was stated that the Horn is a modified Tractrix Design and if you saw all the polar responses you would see that it holds it's dispersion angles very well throughout its designed bandwidth. Its been said that Compression Drivers power response rolloff begins at approximately 6db per octave starting around their midband area. So if you have a Horn that holds its Polar Angels as frequency inceases then their must be some EQ for a flat Power Response. The K402 fits that description and indeed does receive EQing for this in the EV Dx38 active crossover.

3-The correction is not flat and smooth. It looks very amateurish. - if this is correct it is opposite to the curve of the driver and horn accoustic output. If its frequency response is like that JUST SAY SO! Show us the curve. The cat is already out of the bag when the network was posted. I am not the only guy on earth who can analyze a passive network with a computer! Go down-load a public domain program called "PSPICE" and analyze it yourself. I'll even send you the net-list for PSPICE if anybody wants it.

Roy said he will post the curve so please be patient.

4-Two guys here have spent thier hard earned money to buy a set of these speakers. They deserve to know what correction should be applied to their speakers to make them work right. An active processor was recommended and employed and no such corrections have been mentioned. This says both guys are listening to a bad frequency response for the lack of this 14 dB of correction at 550 Hz! I think a 14 dB rise at 550 Hz would sound awfull!

Al Please!

I can speak for myself and as far as I know the TWO GUYs are very happy so please relax or take a break from this because you are just stressing yourself and others. Even your friend Dean is trying to get you to relax about this. Roy has given us all the INFO to make our systems work correctly and YES AL there is compensation in the Active Crossover being implemented for the correct Power Response that this Horn/Driver Needs and if you heard it you would hear that it is correct.

5-Those R-L-C things do more harm than good and are more likey phase correctors than frequency response correctors! Look at the reputation of the "AL" network that came in the LaScala. It uses those things! (Personal opinion). There is also similar stuff in the squawker filter AK-4 nework of the newest Khorn. It too has a big dip in the response. Since when does the Altas PD-5 (K55-x) need that?

AL K.

Al I'm glad you and others have questions and Roy has answered many for us but he does have good reasons I'm sure when he doesn't.

Al its good to ask questions and try to understand the why of things but this attacking attitude is getting old and helps no one so again I'm asking nicely, Please! Stop The Inflaming Comments and Attacks! And I never thought I would ask this of anyone on this forum but enough is enough so Al if you can't control yourself then Please Go Start Another Thread Of Your Choice if this is how you intend to continue.

mike tn[:@]

[Al Klappenberger]

Here's the response of the lowpass section of the posted network. Note the insertion phase of +126 degrees at 550 Hz. Note too the attenuation at the bottom of the dip at 862 Hz. That is where the R-L-C network is resonant. The resulting arc top is at 1289 Hz. and the smoothness of the response below 550 Hz.

Al K.

[Al Klappenberger]

Here is a sample of how this filter can be done properly. Note that the posted filter has 7 parts in the lowpass. Mine has on 3 parts. In both cases the woofer driver voice coil inductnace is also in the circuit and provide one additional element (part) to the network. The netwrok here is using a mirrow image highpass filter to act as a reactance cancelling element. That is, a hypothetical high filter. Note the finite sero attenuation and the level of the arc top at 1289.

Al K.

[Al Klappenberger]

Doc,

To try to answer some of the questions directly:

Why don't I take into account the behavior of the drivers:

** I do. The accoustic response of virtually all the older klipsch drivers and horns are flat enough that no compensation is needed. The impedance of the K55 abd K77 is close enough to resistive loads that they can be considered as such. The K33 wofer is about 6 Ohms in sereis with 1 mHy. All my woofer filters have a 1 mHy output inductor synthesized as part of the filter. I leave that inductor out and the woofer voice coild becoms that inductor. The resonance of the K33 is down far below the filter cutoff and simply plays no part in the filters performance. It is also below the woofer horn cutoff.

How much does it cost:

The cost is proportional to the quality and quantity of the parts you use. If you do it right, it costs quite a bit!

T/S parameters:

They are of no direct concern to the network. Those characteristics go into the design of the woofer horn or bass box itself. THAT total design is then reflected in the complex impedance of the woofer. I then use that impedance to design the filter. This is the information I will need to correctly design a network for a particular speaker.

Resistor + inductor:

I don't wuite know what you are driving at here. I strive for a filter that has the lowest losses I can build into it. This is why I use high quality parts. My analysis program assumes a constant "Q" for all inductos and capacitors. In the analysis plots I just posted, I assumed Q=15 for inductors and Q=500 for capacitors. If the Q is such that an excessive "sag" happens at the crossover I will compensate by optmization to lower the impedance the network presents to the amp. I did this with my ES400T and ES500T networks.

Al K.

[Al Klappenberger]

Mike,

I'm sorry you don't like my attacks here as you call them, but I see no other way to do this except to just tiptoe quietly away. It was a problem from day one when a very tactfull attemp was made to get the information necessary to do an ES network for Richard. There is simply no way to say a design is bad except to say it. If he had simply provided the information there would have been no problem. There was nothing proprietery about what I needed to know, if that's what you are thinking. On the other thread I challanged Roy to defend this design and all I got was hostility. The NERVE! little me questioning the design of the big engineer at Klipsch!

BTW: Don't worry, Roy will be back in here to answer your questions. It's just me he will continue to ignore.

AL K.

[mikebse2a3]

Mike,

I'm sorry you don't like my attacks here as you call them, but I see no other way to do this except to just tiptoe quietly away. It was a problem from day one when a very tactfull attemp was made to get the information necessary to do an ES network for Richard. There is simply no way to say a design is bad except to say it. If he had simply provided the information there would have been no problem. There was nothing proprietery about what I needed to know, if that's what you are thinking. On the other thread I challanged Roy to defend this design and all I got was hostility. The NERVE! little me questioning the design of the big engineer at Klipsch!

BTW: Don't worry, Roy will be back in here to answer your questions. It's just me he will continue to ignore.

AL K.

See AL even in this response the things you say (The NERVE! litle me questioning the design of the big engineer at Klipsch!) come across as inflamatory to me!

B.S. !!! AL just because someone doesn't want to share information (for whatever reasons they have) doesn't give you the right to act the way you have! To have questions is good but to attack trying to get answers is just plain wrong and Roy didn't do anything to deserve that AL!

As far as Roy answering my questions he has been more than free with his time and answeres to them but at anytime I will respect his need to withhold information as he might see the need to! I see that as (Respecting the position that the man is in seeing as he is employed by Klipsch and he has to balance what he shares with his responsibilities to Klipsch)!

Al even you share some information but haven't you also felt the need to also withhold information at times, and if so do you really need to have to explain that reason to everyone and would you appreciate being attacked for not doing so!

So again AL I'm asking " Please Stop The Jabs and Attacks"

mike tn[:@]

[DrWho]

Al....from your models it is blatantly obvious that your design would achieve a much worse transition in the Jubilee. I don't think much more needs to be said - if you don't see it I don't think you ever will.

[Al Klappenberger]

Mike,

I am just as fed up with this as you are about my inflamitory comments. I have gotton to the point now that I no longer care who gets ticked at me or if I continue with building crossover networks or anything else about this. This has been an enjoyable sideline. It no longer is. I really can't figure why I keep coming back here. There is not a thing in it for me. Roy is going to continue designing bad networks and the guys on here will keep getting in hassles about all sorts of other things! This one is just one in a long list! I am starting the process of turning over my network building to Dean Wescott as I no longer find it any fun. I don't like doing the same thing over and over. I wanted to work WITH Roy to develop an ES network for the Jubillee, the design for which I would have GIVEN to Klipsch for FREE! Instead I was not only ignored but insulted!

As to my withholding information, name one thing I have withheld. There is only one, the design for the ES5800. That is simply becasue the average DIYer can't build it. It's too critical. All my other designs are downlaodable from my web site! Any other newer design not there are not there just becasue I am getting tired of all of it!

BTW: I decine to start another thread on this subject becasue I don't want to bring this mess to any more peoples attention than those directy involved. The object is not to broadcast my ill will. There is no point in broadening it to a new thread. Let's just say that this is quite sufficient to vent my disgust! The truth be told, I am surprised Amy hasn't shut me down already! I have been expecting it to happen.

AL K.