Tubes on 24/7...Y/N?

[NOSValves]

I have always been from the 24/7 tubes on camp and I have found as long as they are just warm and not driving they have never changed my electric bill so being on and ready is the way I have always gone.

Your kidding yourself on this one. It doesn't matter if an amp/preamp or source is playing music or not they still use power and they absolutely do cost you money and waste electricity in the process. For instance a VRD amp at Idle draws about 1 full amp from the wall so a pair is 2 amps add a preamp at say a 1/2 amp. So total draw is 2 1/2 amps

So 24/7 usage

2 1/2 X 120V = 300 watts

300 / 1000 = .3 k-watts an hour

.3 X 24 hours = 7.2 K-watts a day

7.2 X 365 day = 2628 K-watts a year

2638 X .15 (cents a K-watt) = $394.20 a year

How about 4 hours a day

.3 X 4 = 1.2 K-watts a day

1.2 X 365 days = 438 per year

438 X .15 cents = $65.70 a year

Oh and just so you know in almost all but extreme cases of over driving a system they use the same amount of electricity playing or not playing music. If your tube gear has stand by mode of course it will cut the usage some but not a huge margin.

[Cal Blacksmith]

Craig, thanks for the math problem!

So, by turning OFF my amps (like I do) I save about $320 per year! I can afford to buy really good tubes on the savings of electricty AND they will last longer to boot! COOL!!!![<)]

[Parrot]

7.2 X 365 day = 2628 K-watts a year

1.2 X 365 days = 438 per year

And for people who don't like adding CO2 to the atmosphere: 2.37 lbs of it is added for every KWh.

So, leaving an amp on 24/7/365 means 6228 lbs of CO2 added to the atmosphere, or more than 3 tons!!!

Four hours a day means 1038 pounds, or roughly 1/2 of a ton.

If we assume most people don't listen more than 4 hours a day on average, and some much less of course, by keeping the amps on 24/7 you are adding an extra 2 and 1/2 tons of CO2 to the atmosphere every year. And why? Because you imagine it sounds a little better and you have been led to believe that your tubes will last longer.

http://www.miamisci.org/af/sln/wolfman/equalenergy.html

(2.37 is not accepted by everyone, and some sites give much lower numbers.)

[LarryC]

Plus using more A/C in the warmer months. Craig's figures come out to about 220 kwh per month -- look at your monthly power bill to see how many kwh you use and then figure the percentage that 220 kwh would add. Some amps, especially Class A, will add more, while I suppose SET's would add much less.

[kaiser SET say]

THX Craig, I average $138.00 a month electric bill on a 2600 square foot home with dual up and down AC units. I guess I'll start killing my pre amps to see how significant a savings I get beside I sure don't want to be adding any more to the greenhouse effect Paul[]

Learn something new every day and sometimes two things around here[]

[Parrot]

Wouldn't it be better to kill your amps? []

I don't mind the extra CO2, personally. It's good for better crop yields. But for the Greens out there, it's something to consider.

[NOSValves]

. Some amps, especially Class A, will add more, while I suppose SET's would add much less.

Actually SET is Class A and uses every bit as much if not more juice then a push pull amplifier. Triode by nature are very inefficient output tubes.

[NOSValves]

My current thinking is that leaving equipment on is somewhat akin to leaving your car idling over night! md

This one made me chuckle!

[LarryC]

Actually SET is Class A and uses every bit as much if not more juice then a push pull amplifier. Triode by nature are very inefficient output tubes.

Well, that's interesting -- thanks.

[JBryan]

Plus using more A/C in the warmer months.  Craig's figures come out to about 220 kwh per month -- look at your monthly power bill to see how many kwh you use and then figure the percentage that 220 kwh would add.   Some amps, especially Class A, will add more, while I suppose SET's would add much less.

Tube amps in general and SET particularly are very inefficient appliances. All that draw for a few measly watts! Another consideration for folks pondering a SET or SS set up. I have an 845 amp that is so bright that you can read by its light and it can cook an egg. All that heat transfer is simply electricity being used for something other than amplifying a signal.

Judging from the heat, I'd say that the king of inefficient tube design must be the OTL amps. Leaving them on for a few hours can raise the temperature a few degrees - enough for my cat to notice and she'll plant herself as close as safely possible to the amps when its cold outside.

Conversely, digital amps are very efficient and can be left on without much concern. Until driven hard, a Hypex 100w/ch amp uses about the same amount of energy as a flashlight bulb. Even though I have left them on for months, they are still cool to the touch.

Have fun, Bryan

[jt1stcav]

I guess the VRD doesn't run as hot? because my cat used to sit there every once in a while even while the amp was on. I have a different stand now, though, so there's not enough space for her.

Actually, I just assumed all tube amps run equally as hot, whether it's PP or SET...I dunno, I'm still a tube-noob! I know class-A amps run full-on whether it's idling away or playing music; do PP tube amps actually run cooler at idle or just not as hot as SET amps?

Then should I also assume then that my 300B SET amp consumes more power then let's say Craig's VRDs or other PP power amps? I honestly don't know, but it would be interesting to find out.

Paul, none of my cats will get near my tube gear while they're powered up, but when they're off and at room temperature several of them have congregated on either side on my audio rack at times. I'm impressed your cat would lay next to one of your monoblocks while powered up.[]

[mark1101]

I turn them off to save on everything from premature tube wear and electricity to my house burning down or my pets getting cooked.

[pauln]

I was about to request that replies not just indicate their preference for on or off, but explain the reasoning supporting this behavior. Then I read the CO2 spin...

All these environmentally profound arguments are flimsy and misguided. Thermodyamics determines the heat and waste products. In order to think about this properly, one must include everything in the whole system - including the energy used to mine and refine the metals, the oil used to make the plastics, the trees cut for the wood, the lights, paper, and computers used to create the design, the energy, resources, and water used to manufacture the product, the fuel used to transport it;... all this and more than one can imagine before you even plug it in. Mines, steel mills, refineries, plastics plants, manufacturing plants, trucking companies, ships, and dealer showrooms all use tremendous quanities of energy and create loads of waste. The total waste history of a new product is huge - almost all of that is spared when you buy used. Used is green.

So if you REALLY are concerned about this kind of thing, you must buy used equipment. The devestating manufacturing hit has already been taken. You are being truely green when you prevent an environmentally 'expensive' machine from going to the dump.

Thermodynamically, you can never lower the waste inherent in the manufacturing history of any NEW product that can't be overwhelmingly spared buying an EXISTING product, even a much less efficient one.

One can not make the overall analysis based on the RATE of waste of the product (because it hides the environmental manufacturing costs)- one has to evaluate the TOTAL waste wherein the differential between NEW and USED is huge (because the original environmental manufacturing cost is not reapeated - it's spared - in sense it is saved - not wasted).

As to the cost savings argument, what's a couple of hundred dollars a year? Many here spend that on cables and interconnects; heck, I spill more beer than that in a year's time!

Now let's see some real reasons you fraidy cats don't keep 'm on 24/7...

[Painful Reality]

And for people who don't like adding CO2 to the atmosphere: 2.37 lbs of it is added for every KWh.

So, leaving an amp on 24/7/365 means 6228 lbs of CO2 added to the atmosphere, or more than 3 tons!!!

Four hours a day means 1038 pounds, or roughly 1/2 of a ton.

Luckily we're using hydro-electricity up here...

For my own amps, I did leave them on in the winter time. I did turn them on-off in the summertime. I wouldn't do that with an oldie like the Eico or a Dyna.

Now everything is stored away as the little tyke definitively have curious fingers. So I'm listening to a digital plastic fantastic piece of siht.

For the record, besides 5687 that burns out pretty fast when left on, the only tubes that ever died on me where while turning on (because of filament going open) and broken tubes when tube rolling on drunken evening.

I wouldn't suggest an always on without knowing how hard are the tubes driven though.

[Parrot]

Paul, none of my cats will get near my tube gear while they're powered up, but when they're off and at room temperature several of them have congregated on either side on my audio rack at times. I'm impressed your cat would lay next to one of your monoblocks while powered up.[]

She is quite a brave cat. She doesn't move when our 80-lb dog runs right toward her--he just leaps over her at the last split second. And also, she is not afraid of the vacuum cleaner, and I thought all cats were afraid of vacuum cleaners.

Here's Katrina biting Phoenix's tail while he's occupied with Jasmine.

[Clarence]

that picture is hilarious!

[Parrot]

Thanks. It's part of a short video I took with my digital camera. Here is the frame before the one above.

[kev313]

I was about to request that replies not just indicate their preference for on or off, but explain the reasoning supporting this behavior. Then I read the CO2 spin...

All these environmentally profound arguments are flimsy and misguided. Thermodyamics determines the heat and waste products. In order to think about this properly, one must include everything in the whole system - including the energy used to mine and refine the metals, the oil used to make the plastics, the trees cut for the wood, the lights, paper, and computers used to create the design, the energy, resources, and water used to manufacture the product, the fuel used to transport it;... all this and more than one can imagine before you even plug it in. Mines, steel mills, refineries, plastics plants, manufacturing plants, trucking companies, ships, and dealer showrooms all use tremendous quanities of energy and create loads of waste. The total waste history of a new product is huge - almost all of that is spared when you buy used. Used is green.

So if you REALLY are concerned about this kind of thing, you must buy used equipment. The devestating manufacturing hit has already been taken. You are being truely green when you prevent an environmentally 'expensive' machine from going to the dump.

Thermodynamically, you can never lower the waste inherent in the manufacturing history of any NEW product that can't be overwhelmingly spared buying an EXISTING product, even a much less efficient one.

One can not make the overall analysis based on the RATE of waste of the product (because it hides the environmental manufacturing costs)- one has to evaluate the TOTAL waste wherein the differential between NEW and USED is huge (because the original environmental manufacturing cost is not reapeated - it's spared - in sense it is saved - not wasted).

As to the cost savings argument, what's a couple of hundred dollars a year? Many here spend that on cables and interconnects; heck, I spill more beer than that in a year's time!

Now let's see some real reasons you fraidy cats don't keep 'm on 24/7...

I turn off the lights during the day and when I go to bed, I turn off the TV when I'm done watching it, I don't turn on the DVD player if I'm not watching a movie. The stove, the microwave, the faucets, and the shower - all off when not in use.

The tubes are also off when I'm not listening. What can I say, I'm a creature of habit.

[NOSValves]

I was about to request that replies not just indicate their preference for on or off, but explain the reasoning supporting this behavior. Then I read the CO2 spin...

All these environmentally profound arguments are flimsy and misguided. Thermodyamics determines the heat and waste products. In order to think about this properly, one must include everything in the whole system - including the energy used to mine and refine the metals, the oil used to make the plastics, the trees cut for the wood, the lights, paper, and computers used to create the design, the energy, resources, and water used to manufacture the product, the fuel used to transport it;... all this and more than one can imagine before you even plug it in. Mines, steel mills, refineries, plastics plants, manufacturing plants, trucking companies, ships, and dealer showrooms all use tremendous quanities of energy and create loads of waste. The total waste history of a new product is huge - almost all of that is spared when you buy used. Used is green.

So if you REALLY are concerned about this kind of thing, you must buy used equipment. The devestating manufacturing hit has already been taken. You are being truely green when you prevent an environmentally 'expensive' machine from going to the dump.

Thermodynamically, you can never lower the waste inherent in the manufacturing history of any NEW product that can't be overwhelmingly spared buying an EXISTING product, even a much less efficient one.

One can not make the overall analysis based on the RATE of waste of the product (because it hides the environmental manufacturing costs)- one has to evaluate the TOTAL waste wherein the differential between NEW and USED is huge (because the original environmental manufacturing cost is not reapeated - it's spared - in sense it is saved - not wasted).

As to the cost savings argument, what's a couple of hundred dollars a year? Many here spend that on cables and interconnects; heck, I spill more beer than that in a year's time!

Now let's see some real reasons you fraidy cats don't keep 'm on 24/7...

I have to say it one of the more laughable arguements of all time.....Well so much energy and resources were wasted when this product was manufactured I'll just keep wasting them..............give me a break. Reminds me of the kid that when asked to take a bath comes back with "but Mom I'm just going to get dirty again"

[SilverSport]

Craig,

I'm with you...I turn off lights when I leave a room...when the bulbs burn out, I replace them...some things may be more effective when left to run constantly but certainly not more efficient...at least energywise. Just my .02...

Bill