Calling all TT experts

[rplace]

Back in the day you bought a turntable and it came complete with arm and LP abusing sapphire needle, you hooked it up to phono on your Pioneer all in one receiver and you were good to go. Maybe you stuck a penny on the head shell for good measure.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Fast forward 25 years or so and you can still get a table/arm/cartridge combo (I did and love it) but if you really want to be part of the "in crowd" (joking) you have to travel the globe (or Internet) like Indiana Jones and return with the ultimate collection of parts to make the whole more then the sum of the pieces. Stick with me...I am getting to the questions soon.

Reading all of Joe-S's trials and tribulations as well as thinking back to Allen's home made arm board (cool set up BTW) has given me more questions then answers.

1. If you buy a used table with a arm hole already in it how do you know all the arms that might work for you?

2. Even if two arms has the same size/shape hole how likely is it that the position of said "hole" would be in the correct location on the plinth? Don't different arms have different lengths and angles (not sure if that is the right term) to the head shell? Can that be accommodated by just altering the location of the cartridge within the head shell?

3. If you needed to alter the hole how would you do it with out ruining a mega dollar table.
3a. Are there people who do this sort of work?

4. Are there some general rules, lists or "families" of arms so you can safely say if it has a brand-X arm mount then it will take brand A, B, C arms as well....but not brand K? If so where does one find such a list or info?

I have been poking around at The Cartridge Database and in turn The Tonearm Database, then looking up various models and in turn trying to see what is the same and what is different...but they are not complete and I am guessing there is a better way to make an educated guess.

Since so many companies make and sell their stuff independent of each other it must not be all that tough to cobble together different pieces. Right now I have that Johnny Cash song running through my head where he makes a Cadillac out of pieces he acquires over years of working at the assembly line.

As usual thanks for any and all input.

http://www.lyricsdomain.com/10/johnny_cash/one_piece_at_a_time.html

The transmission was a '53
And the motor turned out to be a '73
And when we tried to put in the bolts all the holes were gone.

So we drilled it out so that it would fit
And with a little bit of help with an A-daptor kit
We had that engine runnin' just like a song
Now the headlight' was another sight
We had two on the left and one on the right
But when we pulled out the switch all three of 'em come on.

[pauln]

Bang & Olufsen addressed this a long time ago.

[rplace]

Bang & Olufsen addressed this a long time ago.

Yea, I read your post on that last week...interesting. I am glad you dig the set up. I would like to hear that sort of solution some day. However, I think I am on a different quest.

[LarryC]

Rich,

My $0.02 (at best) is that I would go with a combination that is well regarded by experienced users, dealers, and/or distributors. Some arms and cartridges seem to go well together, something you can't tell by measurements, and I'd sure look for that kind of combination.

Having someone knowledgable vouch for a particular used table arm or cart should be better than buying blind (I'm assuming that new, with dealer and manufacturer backup, is beyond the pale here). However, it would take a really knowledgable dealer or other individual to know whether a plinth is correctly drilled for the arm in question. I would much prefer seeing a table that was drilled correctly for the arm in the first place, OR getting expert verification that one drilled for arm A will take arm B without modification. Otherwise you might be facing a plinth or armboard change, and you have to know what you're getting into.

My feeling is that it's best to have a dealer who knows the brand and how to put it all together, and it probably would help to buy at least something from that dealer. I'm aware that one forum member is looking at a particular used tonearm, and is fortuate to have a dealer for that brand in his city. The dealer is being very helpful in ratifying his choice, helping him find out whether an important accessory can be added to the arm, and helping with cartridge selection. A good example.

Larry

[kev313]

Back in the day you bought a turntable and it came complete with arm and LP abusing sapphire needle, you hooked it up to phono on your Pioneer all in one receiver and you were good to go. Maybe you stuck a penny on the head shell for good measure.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Fast forward 25 years or so and you can still get a table/arm/cartridge combo (I did and love it) but if you really want to be part of the "in crowd" (joking) you have to travel the globe (or Internet) like Indiana Jones and return with the ultimate collection of parts to make the whole more then the sum of the pieces. Stick with me...I am getting to the questions soon.

Reading all of Joe-S's trials and tribulations as well as thinking back to Allen's home made arm board (cool set up BTW) has given me more questions then answers.

1. If you buy a used table with a arm hole already in it how do you know all the arms that might work for you?

Not unless the previous owner tells you what it was drilled for or you measure it yourself and compare against arm you are interested in using.

2. Even if two arms has the same size/shape hole how likely is it that the position of said "hole" would be in the correct location on the plinth? Don't different arms have different lengths and angles (not sure if that is the right term) to the head shell? Can that be accommodated by just altering the location of the cartridge within the head shell?

Different arms have different pivot to spindle distances. It is important to know that figure for your arm and drill the hole accordingly. Ideally, your tonearm will come with a template so you don't have to measure it yourself. You may be able to adjust with the cartridge, but I don't know what standard you would use as a guide. I cannot imagine it would be an optimal setup.

3. If you needed to alter the hole how would you do it with out ruining a mega dollar table.

3a. Are there people who do this sort of work?

Drill bit? Drill press? Removeable armboards are key hwen you look at changing tonearms. Buy your table accordingly.

4. Are there some general rules, lists or "families" of arms so you can safely say if it has a brand-X arm mount then it will take brand A, B, C arms as well....but not brand K? If so where does one find such a list or info?

Rega is a popular arm geometry...

I have been poking around at The Cartridge Database and in turn The Tonearm Database, then looking up various models and in turn trying to see what is the same and what is different...but they are not complete and I am guessing there is a better way to make an educated guess.

Since so many companies make and sell their stuff independent of each other it must not be all that tough to cobble together different pieces. Right now I have that Johnny Cash song running through my head where he makes a Cadillac out of pieces he acquires over years of working at the assembly line.

As usual thanks for any and all input.

http://www.lyricsdomain.com/10/johnny_cash/one_piece_at_a_time.html

The transmission was a '53

And the motor turned out to be a '73

And when we tried to put in the bolts all the holes were gone.

So we drilled it out so that it would fit

And with a little bit of help with an A-daptor kit

We had that engine runnin' just like a song

Now the headlight' was another sight

We had two on the left and one on the right

But when we pulled out the switch all three of 'em come on.

[rplace]

Let me narrow the focus a bit. Long term dream (for now anyway) is a middle of the road Basis say a 2001 or 2200 with a Vector arm. I would love to buy new and have it done in one shot...but I don't see that happening tomorrow or next year. I would also like to give the business to a local dealer and cultivate that relationship.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Agon has a Basis 2000 with RB300 arm in my price range. I also have a line on a Basis 1400 (LOCAL YES!) with both a RB300 and Origin Live Silver arm. The 2000 can be upgraded to 2001 stats with the suspended feet/pods...that would get me the table I want in a 2000 now and 2001 later manner....so I am leaning toward passing on the local 1400. I am twisting the guy's arm to sell me just the Origin arm. If that all fell into place I would think the 2000 table with origin arm today...and possibly 2001 suspension in the not too distant future would be a good path. Then save my pennies for Vector and finally be done.

Then my mind got to wondering and I thought what if the Origin arm would drop into my Music Hall MMF-5 table. I could actually see (hear) if the arm makes an improvement on my table...much like Joe did by putting his Rega arm/cart on his new Champion 2. If the arm alone satisfies my upgrade bug for a bit, I could continue to look for a 2001 or 2200 table as the suspension upgrade quote I got for the 2000>>>2001 is over a grand itself. I think I would be better served holding off on the aprox 1300+1000 to get to the 2001 in increments and keep an eye out for a used 2001 or possibly new 2001, since I would have a decent arm in the Origin for a spell.

So, I have I thoroughly confused matters or made them clearer? Any thought on what path to follow? Anybody know if an Origin arm (basically a Rega mount I believe) would fit on a MMF-5 table that takes a Pro-ject 9 Arm?

Since the 1400 has a RB300 and Origin arm I have to belive they are drop in replacements. I am reasonably sure that Vectors and RB300s have the same mount...so it would follow that Origin, RB and Vector are all the same. This leaves us with the MMF-5 Project 9 unknown...heck, just get out the bondo, drill and JB Weld epoxy - Right?

[thebes]

Rich,don't know if you are interested but there is a Lynn Sondek LP12

for sale in our neck of the woods on Craigslist right now. Says he

could get more than $1200 for it but doesn't want to ship. See my post

in 2 Channel for the link.

[edwinr]

rplace, just reading your posts causes me some concern. I'd hate to see you come unstuck with a combination of individually very good quality components that when combined together, sounds like s**t. I reckon you'd be better off buying one good turntable package that is a known quantity. For fun you could buy an older turntable to muck around with. I bought an older Connoisseur turntable for next to nothing and I'm having fun cleaning it up, tweaking etc. I've switched arms in it and tried various cartridge combinations as well.. cool stuff. But nothing I've done to this turntable approaches the sheer musicality and finesse of my Rega P3 fitted an RB-300 tonearm and a Denon DL-103 moving coil cartridge.

[Travis In Austin]

Let me narrow the focus a bit. Long term dream (for now anyway) is a middle of the road Basis say a 2001 or 2200 with a Vector arm. I would love to buy new and have it done in one shot...but I don't see that happening tomorrow or next year. I would also like to give the business to a local dealer and cultivate that relationship.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Rplace,

Great quest, great table and great arm combo, Larry and Gary can give you a lot a help in that department, they did with me. Usually the Basis is drilled for either a Rega or, less commonly, a Grahm. I do know that if the Basis TT has been drilled for a Grahm you are out of luck. I believe that the Rega and Basis are the same size, check with Gary or Larry on that. So, in my view, you are in perfect position, get a nice used Basis with Rega tonearm, and them move into Vector when the time is right.

Travis

[kev313]

rplace, just reading your posts causes me some concern. I'd hate to see you come unstuck with a combination of individually very good quality components that when combined together, sounds like s**t. I reckon you'd be better off buying one good turntable package that is a known quantity. For fun you could buy an older turntable to muck around with. I bought an older Connoisseur turntable for next to nothing and I'm having fun cleaning it up, tweaking etc. I've switched arms in it and tried various cartridge combinations as well.. cool stuff. But nothing I've done to this turntable approaches the sheer musicality and finesse of my Rega P3 fitted an RB-300 tonearm and a Denon DL-103 moving coil cartridge.

Some of those Connoisseur tables are awesome. I believe I once saw an idler wheel model on ebay that lloked like it could give a Garrard or Thorens a run any day of the week.

[Allan Songer]

rplace, just reading your posts causes me some concern. I'd hate to see you come unstuck with a combination of individually very good quality components that when combined together, sounds like s**t. I reckon you'd be better off buying one good turntable package that is a known quantity. For fun you could buy an older turntable to muck around with. I bought an older Connoisseur turntable for next to nothing and I'm having fun cleaning it up, tweaking etc. I've switched arms in it and tried various cartridge combinations as well.. cool stuff. But nothing I've done to this turntable approaches the sheer musicality and finesse of my Rega P3 fitted an RB-300 tonearm and a Denon DL-103 moving coil cartridge.

Some of those Connoisseur tables are awesome. I believe I once saw an idler wheel model on ebay that lloked like it could give a Garrard or Thorens a run any day of the week.

I had one a few years back (and a Rek-O-Cut too) and I could never get rid of the rumble. I tried every (cheap) thing I could think of but nothing worked. I sold it on ebay.

[maxg]

Just a quick one.

The Origin arm and even the RB300 will not simply drop into your MusicHall as far as I know. Origin arms do indeed use Rega mounts.

Musichalls usually use Project arms and these have Linn mounts which are different.

There might be a ready board for the MusicHall - call a dealer and find out.

If not you have a drilling job ahead - one I would not recommend as the Project 9 arm is quite a good one anyway and the benefit will not be that great - subject to the cartridge you choose.

[rplace]

Thanks Max, that is what I expected. It is in fact a pro-ject 9 arm, non-carbon.

I don't think I would want to mess with the MMF at all to put the origin arm on it. Was just sort of hoping it would be a drop in replacement so I could compare.

I'm using a Denon 103 cartridge currently and think the higer mass of the origin arm might help.

[kev313]

Thanks Max, that is what I expected. It is in fact a pro-ject 9 arm, non-carbon.

I don't think I would want to mess with the MMF at all to put the origin arm on it. Was just sort of hoping it would be a drop in replacement so I could compare.

I'm using a Denon 103 cartridge currently and think the higer mass of the origin arm might help.

I'm still not convinced that the Origin (or any Rega) will do the Denon justice.

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=vinyl&m=77099

I should note, however, that I've never heard the combination. There certainly are plenty of happy users of this combo. Anybody ever heard the 103 in a Rega AND in a heavier arm like an SME? I be curious to hear about the comparison.

[edwinr]

Re: using the Denon DL-103 in a Rega RB300 arm - I was a little sceptical myself. I was going to buy a Rega cartridge to fit on my arm, but I spoke with a number of friends who run the Denon in the Rega arm. I was told it was a match made in heaven. I thought 'Yeah, sure'. But as the Denon was so inexpensive I bought one and installed it. If it didn't work, well no big loss, I'd save the Denon for when I upgraded my t/t/ later.

But, wonder of wonders! The thing worked! And really well. The combination is outstanding and I can't recommend the pairing highly enough. The tracking is superb and the detail and music this cartridge pulls out of the record groove is excellent. What buying this cartridge has done, is it has given my Rega P3 a new lease of life. I've got the updated Rega motor installed and I reckon I would have to spend a fair bit more money to better the sound.

[maxg]

Thanks Max, that is what I expected. It is in fact a pro-ject 9 arm, non-carbon.

I don't think I would want to mess with the MMF at all to put the origin arm on it. Was just sort of hoping it would be a drop in replacement so I could compare.

I'm using a Denon 103 cartridge currently and think the higer mass of the origin arm might help.

I'm still not convinced that the Origin (or any Rega) will do the Denon justice.

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=vinyl&m=77099

I should note, however, that I've never heard the combination. There certainly are plenty of happy users of this combo. Anybody ever heard the 103 in a Rega AND in a heavier arm like an SME? I be curious to hear about the comparison.

Rplace,

Agree in the main - but the Origin Live's I have come across are heavier than you think - I seem to recall 14 grammes apparent mass.

That is certainly enough to make the Denon shine.

An SME should be a superb match as well of course - better? Dont know - would need to play with one for a while.

[jazman]

Re: using the Denon DL-103 in a Rega RB300 arm - I was a little sceptical myself. I was going to buy a Rega cartridge to fit on my arm, but I spoke with a number of friends who run the Denon in the Rega arm. I was told it was a match made in heaven. I thought 'Yeah, sure'. But as the Denon was so inexpensive I bought one and installed it. If it didn't work, well no big loss, I'd save the Denon for when I upgraded my t/t/ later.

But, wonder of wonders! The thing worked! And really well. The combination is outstanding and I can't recommend the pairing highly enough. The tracking is superb and the detail and music this cartridge pulls out of the record groove is excellent. What buying this cartridge has done, is it has given my Rega P3 a new lease of life. I've got the updated Rega motor installed and I reckon I would have to spend a fair bit more money to better the sound.

I would suggest adding the Expressimo Heavyweight to that tonearm.

Klipsch out.

[edwinr]

Thanks for that recommendation, jazman. I've found the website.. Here's a review link. http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/heavyweight_e.html

P.S. Bad news. Expressimo Audio has stopped manufacture of it's turntable accessories...

[jazman]

Thanks for that recommendation, jazman. I've found the website.. Here's a review link. http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/heavyweight_e.html

P.S. Bad news. Expressimo Audio has stopped manufacture of it's turntable accessories...

Keep your eyes peeled to Audiogon. They do show up there, like this one already sold .http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtnrm&1163006433

Klipschc out.

[Jobman]

If you can't get the Espressimo weight, may I make a suggestion?

I have the Gooovetracer counterweight on my Rega P3 and RB300 arm, and it is awesome. (Thanks again for selling me the table Jazman!)

Link: http://www.groovetracer.com/

The owner, Frank, is the kind of guy you can just pick up the phone and talk to about your setup and what you want to do. He even has a P3 in his lobby/office. His quality is top notch.

I also have modified my P3 with his acrylic platter and subplatter. I was originally looking at a variety of products to make these changes, but Franks quality and service led me to try him instead.

I know this sounds like I might be the marketing guy for Groovetracer, but I am just a happy and satisfied customer who does not have a problem recommending a good product I have experience with.

I have pretty much gone about as far with this Rega as I can. (Other than adding a VTF adjustment) I upgraded the wiring and put on a Shelter 501. From everything else I have heard, it would take maybe over $3k to buy better performance than I have.

Best of luck in your pursuit. It is a FUN hobby!

Jobman