what Wpc do i need?

[bismarck]

I am mostly decided that i will go with the entire synergy F-3 system, but, as always i have a question. I would like to get a denon reciever because my my current yammie w/ my klipsch sounds bright and/or harsh at times and i have heard alot of good things with denon and klipsch. The F-3's handle 150W rms and for me to get a denon reciever that outputs 150 rms i need to spend two grand, so what i am i missing. How many watts do i need from my reciever to adequately power my surround?

[TheEAR]

A honest 75W/pc will do,and honest watts are not easy to come by with receivers.Even the big dog receivers over 5K fail to deliver when all channels are driven(not this matters as in the eral world demand on all five/or seven channels NEVER is this high).

So the claimed 75W/pc from Denon will do a good job.

[bismarck]

Would I be okay wth the AVR1707/1507 or would upgrading to the 1907 push the F-3 systm better?

[Fish]

Arthur is correct that 75"real" watts would be good,sadly I would not trust Denons(although they mate ok with Klipsch) lower end to deliver it across all channels driven.HK makes a 75 watt per ch avr,its weighs about 41lbs,several lbs.more than the Denon 38xx models that claim 120x7?I have owned several Denons,they work ok w/Klipsch and are reliable but get the upper end of middle.

[bismarck]

the 1970 claims to do 85x7 and I will currently be running a 5.1 setup because i don't have room for a 7.1. I personally think 7.1 is worth the money because i really enjoy the sound behind me. Anyway, if I am only driving 5 speakers and it claims 85x7 than I would figure that it would work well.

My current yamie sounds harsh at tmes, but with the 5960 do you think that the ypoa would get rid of that?

[oldbuckster]

the 1970 claims to do 85x7 and I will currently be running a 5.1 setup because i don't have room for a 7.1. I personally think 7.1 is worth the money because i really enjoy the sound behind me. Anyway, if I am only driving 5 speakers and it claims 85x7 than I would figure that it would work well.

My current yamie sounds harsh at tmes, but with the 5960 do you think that the ypoa would get rid of that?

Get atleast 100 watts per.........Never been happy with less, no matter what others say, had plenty under 100 ok for music but movies need more Bang....your money your choice

[psg]

No offense, but 100W is a nice marketing number. That's about it. The difference between 85W and 100W is 0.7 dB. That's probably am lot less than the smallest increase on volume controls with ticks. Sure, I sometime light up the last LED on my amplifier, but most of the time I'm listening at -30dB on the dial, or less. That's 0.1W or less, no where near 85W or 100W.

[twheats1]

F-3's are 97db, 1 meter at 1 watt. 85 watts would give you the potential of 116db! To me that seems adequate for most home theatres. I'm currently driving RF-52's with a Yamaha RXV 1600, the equivalent on a HTR 5990. Yes, it can sound a bit "harsh" at insane volume levels, (ie when the lights flicker) but overall I am happy with the Yamaha. IMHO most receivers at this price point will sound similar and it becomes a question of the features you want. Remember, the difference between 85 watts and 170 watts is 3db.

[Cal Blacksmith]

I hate to say it again (as I have posted it several times)

but when I added the Yamaha M50 outboard amp to drive my main speakers, the

meters show 0.3w for sound at 75db and goes up to a whopping 3.0w on explosions

etc. The M50 is rated at 120wpc and there is LOTS of room left over. I agree,

100wpc is a marketing ploy. It takes DOUBLE the wattage to get a 3db increase

in volume. So the difference between a 100wpc amp and a 200wpc amp is 3db, or

about the volume of a whisper in a quiet room.

[dtximages]

Hey man, alot of people might disagree on here but Im a huge fan of Harman Kardon with Klipsch. I have both and certainly like the functionality better. Which one sounds better? Wow thats tough because I have so many different Klipsch speakers. It would probably depend on my mood at the time and the song. I have always kinda bent toward the H/K but even I wouldnt put too much weight on my opinion haha.

OH the H/K will be rated at considerably less wattage but not to fear. They use a high current design that will deliver more than the stated amount of power. You will find alot about this on this discussion board and one rule of thumb that ive heard was that 75wpc for an H/K is equivalent to about 100 wpc on another amp.

Good luck

[colterphoto1]

Remember when calculating watts that it takes DOUBLE the wattage to gain only 3 db of SPL. Also when looking at the max SPL, remember to leave room for headroom for peaks. I like to have about 10 db extra (that's a real luxury I know) above my normal listening volume.

So the difference between 85 and say 125 wpc is nearly nil.

Michael

[PhilMays]

I really think it comes down to CLEAN power. I had a Denon rated at 70 watts, Onkyo rated at 100 watts, and Yammy rated at 130 watts. HUGE, HUGE, HUGE difference in those three when cranking. I burned the Denon up, the Onkyo and Yanny were pretty close but the Onkyo would clip much sooner.

When I added a 150 WPC outboard amp to my system it really "produced" good clean watts and eliminated clipping until I moved to a much larger volume room.

Get a decent amp and use it as a pre/pro (Denon if you like them) and buy some dedicated amps on ebay on the cheap.

Phil

[TheEAR]

I really think it comes down to CLEAN power. I had a Denon rated at 70 watts, Onkyo rated at 100 watts, and Yammy rated at 130 watts. HUGE, HUGE, HUGE difference in those three when cranking. I burned the Denon up, the Onkyo and Yanny were pretty close but the Onkyo would clip much sooner.

When I added a 150 WPC outboard amp to my system it really "produced" good clean watts and eliminated clipping until I moved to a much larger volume room.

Get a decent amp and use it as a pre/pro (Denon if you like them) and buy some dedicated amps on ebay on the cheap.

Phil

Good clean power there you go

This is why I said goodbye to reciever amplification a few years ago. A power amp from ATI,Bryston,SimAudio will always make any receiver sound like a second class piece.

And yes it is very true to say, often only a few watts are used and unless blasting earwax is your thing,all action is under 10W,and this peaks.A honnest 70W /ch amp will drive the lerger Klipsch speakers to insane levels.

[wheelman]

I agree with the clean watts. Especially when you like your music loud. 70 good clean watts will be very powerfull souding with a pair of very high sensitive speakers like Klipsch. I highly doubt you will find an honest 70 watts in any receiver. Regardless of what they spec. So I would look for something that has quality watts, and doesn't have to lie about their watts, or hide distortion levels from you. Then some amps will color your sound to the cooler, or wamer side of things. You may like one over the other. The best advice I can give is if your in this for life, and can afford it go seperates. Now don't even waste your time on receivers. Your loosing money swapping and trading up. Get the goods now

I'm running a Nakamichi reciever with a rotel power amp into the preamp outs of the back of the receiver. I wish I had money for a seperate preamp but that's not gonna happen right now. I could of owned a 5 channel amp, and a preamp a long time ago ( in the used market) from wasting money on searching for a good receiver.

If you must get a receiver look into a used Nak, rotel, nad ( ask if it's got quirky problems, I can't recomend this brand on reliability but the sound is great), arcam ( pricey), cambridge audio, B&K ( pricey probally get you into seperates range), outlaw audio, older ( black box) Harman's are more musical than their newer brothers ( Try to buy used, and I would stay away from all the big companys even Harmon unless it's an older one and that's all your budget allows). Anything new and your getting close to seperates territory. You shouldn't care about bells and whistles. A total waste, and adds nothing to the quality of sound. It almost always takes away from the quality of the power supply, because they market that instead of the power supply. Which is the single most important, and expensive thing in an amp. I probaly would only go with 5 channels in a living room situation. You can position the surrounds so they sound like they are coming from behind you and off to the sides. Good luck

[colterphoto1]

'clean' watts are just watts. It's all about headroom and having extra wattage for the peaks and not drive into clipping. Watts are watts. Ample power supply and accurate ratings give more watts.

But there are no clean watts and dirty watts. (assuming THD to be within reason)

Just more watts. Get enough watts to do the job, without clipping, without overheating.

M

[bismarck]

To keep in my budget could I power my center and surround with a reciever and just use a sperate amp for my mains using the pre outs on my reciever? or would the main sound different since they are being powered by a different amp than the rest of my speakers?

[PhilMays]

you could do that. In fact it will let your reciever give more watts to those channels instead of all channels being driven.

Phil

[PhilMays]

'clean' watts are just watts. It's all about headroom and having extra wattage for the peaks and not drive into clipping. Watts are watts. Ample power supply and accurate ratings give more watts.

But there are no clean watts and dirty watts. (assuming THD to be within reason)

Just more watts. Get enough watts to do the job, without clipping, without overheating.

M

And obviously this is what we are talking about. 70 watts driven with a high THD might as well me "trash" watts. 70 watts on a larger amp with less THD is "clean".

[psg]

To keep in my budget could I power my center and surround with a reciever and just use a sperate amp for my mains using the pre outs on my reciever? or would the main sound different since they are being powered by a different amp than the rest of my speakers?

I hate to not tow thw party line here, but maybe a receiver is all you need? How hard are the F3 to drive anyway? How low in impedence do they go?

The F3 are $850 MSRP per pair, right? I wouldn't spend $1000 driving them. I'd rather see you spend less on amplification and more on speakers. You'll get more bang out of it.

I power Klipschorns with a harman/kardon avr-325 receiver. It weights 40 lbs and produce good clean sound to my ears. I can't tell any difference if I plug in an old Nikko Alpha 220 power amp I have, and only very subtle differences with an old Carver m4.0t. Maybe my ears (and those of my friends) are shot, but I can't tell the difference. Maybe if I spent a small fortune on an amp I could tell, but maybe not.

[wheelman]

To keep in my budget could I power my center and surround with a reciever and just use a sperate amp for my mains using the pre outs on my reciever? or would the main sound different since they are being powered by a different amp than the rest of my speakers?

I think that's your best bet if your on a budget. That's what I did, and you may hear a differrence, because the seperate will be better. But it's a good thing if you ask me. As for watts being clean and dirty. Well if companys wouldnt lie about there ratings it would be much easier. No one would ever beable to get a 100 watt receiver for 200 dollars then.