alternative designs- why go jubilee?

[mikebse2a3]

yeah that was not my intent. i sure wish that trey had not put that klipsch logo on my name. i liked it better when no one knew i worked for klipsch.

did you get my answers to your questions? how are those ugly, big, stinking speakers doing? (just in case your wife reads this thread....[])

Hey Roy! I can't for the life of me figure out why Richard's Wife thinks his are Big and Ugly since they look just like my "Beautiful Speakers". Maybe Richard should redecorate the room so that the Jubilees become the "FOCAL POINT"[].

Anyway my guess is DM is busy (as if people have a life away from the forum) and will be back to the discussion.

One Point That I've not seen mentioned in the dicussion so far is how the Very Important Design Goal of Extending the usefull Frequency Range Higher in Frequency for the Jubilee was met by the "Realization Of The Need To" and ability in the design to bring the Two Horn Mouths closer together (In this case using two 12" drivers and changing the Folding of the Horn to narrow the distance between the Two Mouths) thus Extending The High Frequency Response by pushing the interferance from the Two Horn Mouths into a Higher Frequency Range.

DM all I can say is the Jubilee measures better (Frequency Range and Distortion) than the Klipschorn and even more importantly having spent many years with Klipschorns in several different rooms of my own as well as several other setups with Khorns the Jubilee is audibly clearly an improvement on the Klipschorn IMHO and It's Low Bass Response is as extended as the Klipschorn and the improvement in Impact and Clarity was immediately noticeable to me upon first listen.

Roy I hope to go to the Pilgrimage 07 in Indy next year and if at all possible I believe a Stereo demonstration of the Jubilee should be done for all to hear what Klipsch and the Jubilee can deliver to sound reproduction!

mike tn[]

[Coytee]

Say Mike...

Perhaps we should get a trailer & schlep our 'ugly boxes' up there. I understand Trey has one of the "X" boxes so if the HQ building doesn't have one, we could still cobble together a 5 way system (who needs the .1?)

Perhaps we could use the domed stadium at Indy for the demo... or do you think that would be too small?

[6]

[Deang]

Mke, ever try false corners with your Klipschorns? Better horn? Better drivers?

[DrWho]

here, Who...

use Real Player to open

Got a sample that doesn't require Real Player? I refuse to install the program on my computer. I done gone reconnected all me speakers since I was tearing my hair out without music.

[D-MAN]

Well, don't stop now! Let's escalate!

okay!!

DM: Wow, Roy is talking to me! To ME! (unfortunately, he's beating me up most of the time!) I'll have to defend myself using every bit of my typical wit and charm...

The ONLY thing that a 12" has is a higher mass rolloff. It will have MORE distortion down low, as it has to NATURALLY have MORE EXCURSION to accomplish the task of moving x amount of air due to its cone diameter. Excursion is ALWAYS non-linear. Hence, more excursion=more distortion. Doubling drivers reduces excursion, so less distortion naturally results.

is there only one formula for a 12"?

DM: basically, there is only so much air that a 12" cone can grab, and that means that increasing excursion is the only way to increase the effective air volume. Essentially, the question resolves down to this: which is better, a larger volume of air moving at a lower velocity (15), or smaller volume of air moving at higher velocity (12") for the same relative SPL.

As far as 2 -12" moving more air per excursion than a single 15" - granted. But then 2 -15's move more air than 2 - 12's, right? My point.

how about dual 18" or better yet three 12"? we did dual 12" because each 12" had a horn and we just "stacked" one top of each other. there are oh some many more items to consider to help excursion and so many more items to consider other than excursiion...

DM: 18" drivers are not particularily good at transient response due to the amount of moving mass. What they gain ion cone area, they give up with moving mass, simply that an 18" cone of sufficient strength weighs more. This comes back to the ratio I mentioned earlier. The physics of a 15" vs a 12" are that the 15" moves more air/per lower excursion, both highly desirable. The weight of air remaining constant, which is better?

The ratio of moving mass-to-required excursion for a given SPL is best balanced by the 15" variety compared to 18's or 12's. The 15" cone is light enough to handle mid-and-upper bass transients (accelleration), and large enough in area to grab an effective amount of air (so to speak), keeping excursion down, COMPARITIVELY SPEAKING.

Actually, the historical documentation prefers 15" as being the best possible choice for a given excursion and the comparitive ratio of mass-to-excursion and the amount of air that the cone grabs is better in a single 15 than a single 12. In particular, Badmaeiff and Davis' "How to Build Speaker Enclosures", from the 60's, amongst others. Actually they say 2-15's are the cat's meow because of the efficiencies acheived for a given excusion and the transient response due to mass rolloff is better than a single 18 which is pretty much inarguable. I'll dig around and see if I can find a reference that shows this and try to post it here, but I can't promise...

again, are there only one formula for a 15"?? never heard of the book but then again never heard of speakers made from using this book. cook books, in my opinion (again this not fact), get you in the ball park because they tend to minimize and trivialize the importance of keeping so many parameters in balance. paul used to tell me that the reason not many people designed horns, much less good horns, because they didn't want to go that extra 20%.

DM: the point is that the ratio of cone area, typical moving mass, and excursion required at a specific SPL is better (or should I say "more balanced") in a 15" cone vs. a 12" cone, all things being equal.

In the case of the Jubilee, we are concerned with a 90 sq. in throat (the combined area) compared to the Khorn's 78 sq. in. throat (the narrower slot notwithstanding). That is a total difference of 12 sq. inches. Now do you REALLY think that there is a massive difference there? The answer is NOT!

slots are not the only thing going on here. how about the design differences in the woofers themselves, the loading of the back air chamber, the path length differences, the discountinuities in the expansion, etc, etc.

DM: the Khorn not being annulled and the Jubilee being annulled, for instance? The throat reactance of the Khorn vs. the throat reactance of the Jubilee? Naturally, the Jubilee would win on that account. The point I was making was an overall THROAT AREA comparison between the two, excluding other considerations such as slot size.

The real concern is how big is the slot and subsequent channel, which determines the amount of throat distortion you will generate at a given SPL. Which one wins? Probably a wash. The Jubilee, by virtue of dual drivers, which lessens the required excurstion per given SPL would be a lower velocity threw the throat, but this is counteracted by small slots and channels. The Khorn has wider channels - but a narrower slot - which is going to INCREASE reactance initially. This is counteracted by the wider channels, so I figure it's a wash.

you ought to read the aes paper. distortion reduction was actually quite significant. and it isn't really all that much to do with narrower or wider; area is key.

DM: I have read the AES paper. I was referring to throat distortion specifically. Throat channel dimensions (related to but not exclusively, to "slot" size) certainly has alot to do with throat overload distortion. The point I was making was that the Khorn, having LARGER throat proportions, comparitively, is theoretically capable of less throat distortion per given SPL.

Now as to whether you are attributing the lower distortion to the ratio of area of cone vs. area of "slot" and the 1:1 ratio of throat proportion with the slot, being a better value in the Jubilee vs. the Khorn, then your point is well taken.

We could resolve this by calculating the differences in reactance especially at the throat(s), but that is quite complicated, and I'm not quite sure that the result in acoustic ohms would be in regards to the particular drivers. I do know that the Khorn is operating the K33E under more compression than the Jubilee, though, which lowers its efficiency.

actually more compression, increases efficiency until you start to distort the air movement.

DM: In general priciple. However, the point I was making was that the Khorn, of course, is not fully annulled (undersized Vb) and is operated with a slot far below the size required for maximum efficiency. Annulled driver(s) tend to operate with greater efficiencies due to less reactance down to the horn's Fc, below which, the fall off is more exagerated (compatitively).

The difference is that the K33E isn't the "strongest" driver. Better ones are available. Why you guys haven't tried them before contemplating "jumping ship" I don't know.

better how. pulling out one parameter and upsetting the balancing act and then introducing a different parameter upsets the other parameters. ask those who took a la scala and put a k-43 in. it is a "stronger" driver but only in certain areas. as doc's posts say, it's all about compromise.

DM: Indeed.

Non-Klipsch drivers most likely would require a widened slot. The main point of what I'm saying is that there is a great deal of sonic differences in drivers. The main physcial limitation of the Khorn is the available Vb. Try an EV EVX-155 (annulls in 3030 cu.in, max efficiency w/52" throat. However, new crossover required.

This assumes, of course, that the Khorn is still operated in its "normal" bandpass. If you want to increase the crossover point, then changing drivers, ect. isn't going to help. I'm talking about getting it to "kick" and otherwise "punch" on the low end, the only thing it that could be improved, IMO.

The only point of the Jubilee that the Khorn cannot beat is the crossover point itself.

actually, there quite a few others.

DM: Yes - increased power handling, lower distortion, better phase response, increased upper frequency response. It certainly sets some standards. I'd love to hear one.

P.S. Roy, why isn't the 12" Jubilee driver available from Klipsch for DIYers? That could get the Jubilee more well known, which would help Klipsch CO. in the long run.

DM

in all seriousness dm, thanks for the fun discussion and for making me think!!

berryboy roy

Me too! - just don't beat me up so much next time!

DM

[Coytee]

Cool... I can go get more popcorn now.

D-man... Kind of a silly question but why don't you cop a plane to Atlanta.

You can see/hear/critique JC's homebuilt Jubilee, then skirt up the highway 3 hours and hear Mike's Jubilees on some PP 2A3 amps, then mine on some solid state, mixed with MC-2102 on top?!?!?!?

Between us all, I'm sure we can house you for a night or two and when you get here, you Mike & I can go out to dinner.

Mike's treat of course [6]

[mikebse2a3]

Mke, ever try false corners with your Klipschorns? Better horn? Better drivers?

Hey Dean

First I believe the main topic of this thread was a comparison of the Jubilee Bass Horn versus the Klipschorn's Bass Horn and other Types of Bass Horns and not about what I believe you mean to be alternative Midrange/Tweeter Horns and Drivers so that is what my response was in reference to.

As far as false corners are concerned I didn't think I had a need to try them until now but if I still had KHorns I do believe I would have to follow the construction of the 60th Anniversary Klipschorn which to me points the way to what would offer some very real benefits/improvements to the Khorn since it offers a stronger and more stable and complete woofer horn as well as to some extent a fully extended and well built false corner could also. I have strenghtened my natural room corners by adding sheets of MDF to help counter the flimsy sheetrock on stud construction of my room walls though. I do believe to realize the full benefits of adding false corners or extending the Klipschorns bass horn like the 60th anniversary means securely bolting and bracing the additional panels to the main Bass Cabinet.

In my opinion the Klipschorn's Bass Horn is still to be very respected as a reproducer of sound but if ultimate performance is your goal then IMHO the Jubilee's Bass Horn offers all the orginal Klipschorn's Bass Horn performance as well as improving on it in many areas.

mike tn[]

[DrWho]

there is only so much air that a 12" cone can grab, and that means that increasing excursion is the only way to increase the effective air volume.

Can't you just increase the number of drivers?

18" drivers are not particularily good at transient response due to the amount of moving mass.

What about the extra mass on a 15" versus 12" driver?

Just playing a little devil's advocate []

Based on some of the math we've been learning in my Power Systems class; for a given motor strength, the motor is going to have "more control" over the diaphragm as the diaphragm gets smaller provided you change the suspension compliance accordingly. The tradeoff is the reduction in efficiency from the smaller surface area (nothing new here).

However, if you set the total surface area for the system to a fixed value, AND achieve that area with any number of drivers, AND use the same motor on every driver, then the system using more motors is going to have lower distortion - OR a smaller rear volume can be used for the same efficiency - OR the rear volume can be kept the same size and the bandwidth increased. Pick your design goal. The reason we don't see this more often is because it's expensive and sometimes it is difficult to get the compliance of the suspension such that you can achieve your goals with linear behavior at all output levels...not to mention you quickly run into issues of comb-filtering as well.

It's a huge system of compromise around the design goals. To bring this back to the Jubilee/Khorn/any similar "corner" bass bin...it seems the biggest criteria is the footprint of the speaker and the bandwidth of the system. More motor strength per surface area allows the Jubilee to have the 'same' footprint while also going higher in frequency. The only tradeoff I can see is that it's more expensive.

On a totally different note...

Roy, you've mentioned a few times that the Jubilee bass bin is just two horns stacked on top of each other. Other than efficiency and slightly different polars, is there any big disadvantage to using only half of the Jubilee bass bin (effectively just one horn)? I was thinking it would be cool to use that smaller red wooden horn that's advertised with PWK and a bass bin that is half as big for a "bookshelf" speaker. Ever consider using something like this for the surrounds in your basement, Coytee? [H]

I've been trying to figure out the cost of building something similar for myself as well...maybe if I pick up another side job I could afford to do this by next summer - and then I could have a really rockin pair of speakers on campus (as if the Chorus II's don't rock enough) []

[D-MAN]

There are some great benefits to dual-driver horn rigs. That is not lost on me!

Just 12's - that's lost on me! ;-)

With that in mind, the Jub's have to totally kick my tail before I change my opinion.

Gentlemen, the question has been posed: will they?

DM

[DrWho]

Well I certainly feel that they walk all over the khorn...I'm not sure how they compare to your bass horn designs though.

I would take Coytee up on his offer - them's some fun guys to hang out with and you'd get a good feel for very different applications of the speakers.

What kind of music do you listen to DM?

[D-MAN]

I've talked to Mike in Tenn.

I have an eclectic mix. No techno or rap, though, which I find to be monotonous, boring and generally too horrible to allow on my system!

I listen to orchestral, jazz, rock, etc. No one particular type, but "good" recordings definitely preferred.

The Khorn's have very good bass, I think. Take a Khorn bass bin, change the driver so it can kick when needed, enlarge the slot to full throat size, make it fold in a single plane, and swap the top cabinet entirely with a single horn and direct it as needed to create a soundstage, cross it over at 600Hz, and that's pretty much what I'm used to listening to.

What or where I think the Khorn lacks is a feeling of "solidity" in the bass. I think this is the K33E driver. However, it is very "transparent" sounding, too. I've found that you tend to give up the "transparency" when you go for the "solidity". It's definitely a trade-off.

But I'll take the "flashy" dynamics and punch over the extreme lows. It's more realistic and therefore more exciting and fun to listen to.

DM

[Deang]

As far as false corners are concerned I didn't think I had a need to try them until now but if I still had KHorns I do believe I would have to follow the construction of the 60th Anniversary Klipschorn which to me points the way to what would offer some very real benefits/improvements to the Khorn since it offers a stronger and more stable and complete woofer horn as well as to some extent a fully extended and well built false corner could also.

The 60th Anniversay Klipschorn does not have a complete LF horn -- far from it actually.

Ever see this thread?

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/10/401929/ShowThread.aspx

I suppose page 4 is a good place to start.

I understand that the Jubilee is a superior bass horn, I'm not disputing that. However, I believe that all Klipschorns are not created equal. While reports of the Jubilee bottom are consistantly positive -- comments about the Klipschorn bottom are all over the map. I think the primary reason for this is related to the quality/strength of the corner she inhabits. My opinion is that it makes or breaks the bass. Though the Jubilee undoubtably trounces a Klipschorn situated in a weak corner, she probably closes considerable distance when coupled to a false corner similar to what I use -- where LF energy isn't lost through the walls.

I mentioned drivers and horns because there is more to a speaker than the bass. One person told me the Klipschorn top is more "musical", another told me the Jubilee top is "hyper-detailed", and another told me they might buy the bottoms but will go three-way. I'm sitting on the fence, mostly because my modded Klipschorns sound outstanding. Naturally, I weigh statements about the Jubilee against what I'm hearing -- not against the stock setup.

[seti]

There are some great benefits to dual-driver horn rigs. That is not lost on me!

Just 12's - that's lost on me! ;-)

With that in mind, the Jub's have to totally kick my tail before I change my opinion.

Gentlemen, the question has been posed: will they?

DM

The proof is in the hearing. Go hear yourself a pair and report back. They have been my dream speaker since I first heard them in Hope, AR two years ago.

[mikebse2a3]

As far as false corners are concerned I didn't think I had a need to try them until now but if I still had KHorns I do believe I would have to follow the construction of the 60th Anniversary Klipschorn which to me points the way to what would offer some very real benefits/improvements to the Khorn since it offers a stronger and more stable and complete woofer horn as well as to some extent a fully extended and well built false corner could also.

The 60th Anniversay Klipschorn does not have a complete LF horn -- far from it actually.

Ever see this thread?

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/10/401929/ShowThread.aspx

I suppose page 4 is a good place to start.

I understand that the Jubilee is a superior bass horn, I'm not disputing that. However, I believe that all Klipschorns are not created equal. While reports of the Jubilee bottom are consistantly positive -- comments about the Klipschorn bottom are all over the map. I think the primary reason for this is related to the quality/strength of the corner she inhabits. My opinion is that it makes or breaks the bass. Though the Jubilee undoubtably trounces a Klipschorn situated in a weak corner, she probably closes considerable distance when coupled to a false corner similar to what I use -- where LF energy isn't lost through the walls.

mike tn: Yes I agree Dean that the 60th Anniversary doesn't have a full false corner and that wasn't what I was meaning. I was simply pointing out that the 60th Anniversary completes the Horn Farther than the traditional Khorn and there should be some real benefits to that update feature. Yes I do remember your false corner thread and I believe you executed the false corner option extremely well Dean!

I mentioned drivers and horns because there is more to a speaker than the bass. One person told me the Klipschorn top is more "musical", another told me the Jubilee top is "hyper-detailed", and another told me they might buy the bottoms but will go three-way. I'm sitting on the fence, mostly because my modded Klipschorns sound outstanding. Naturally, I weigh statements about the Jubilee against what I'm hearing -- not against the stock setup.

AH as I'm sure you know! One of the hardest things to acheive in Sound Reproduction is a real consensus on how something sounds.

If you take a stock Khorn and install it in 10 different rooms you will most likely have 10 different sounds that vary from extremely good to sounds like crap ( In a large part because most rooms aren't acoustically treated properly for the System being used and the purpose it is being used for). Then add to this peoples personel taste and priorities in sound reproduction and you will be hard pressed to know what any speaker really sounds like because everyones experience is going to be different and so the only way to know if you will like it is to hear it yourself and preferably in your own listening enviroment especially if you are limited in your ability to use acoustical treatments in your listening room.

Actually Dean when I think about it if I was as happy with my modded KHorns sound as you seem to be then I wouldn't make a move till I could hear the Jubilees for myself. One thing is for sure your setup is tweeked to your specific enviroment and taste.

mike tn[]

[D-MAN]

I didn't hear a resounding "yes"...

it's not quite convincing?

Brings up another point about things in general, once they get so good, or the performance is at such a level, there are only differences, not a complete re-ordering of the universe! It's not that one totally eclipses the other, rather it's a lateral shift, more akin to personal preference than a striking difference in performance.

DM

[mikebse2a3]

I didn't hear a resounding "yes"...

it's not quite convincing?

Brings up another point about things in general, once they get so good, or the performance is at such a level, there are only differences, not a complete re-ordering of the universe! It's not that one totally eclipses the other, rather it's a lateral shift, more akin to personal preference than a striking difference in performance.

DM

DM

I'm not sure what your point is here as far as: I didn't hear a resounding "yes"... it's not quite convincing?

Just to make my personel opinion clear for you. The Jubilee I bought (this includes the K402/K69A also) is not just a lateral shift or just a different sound to me. It was a clear and meaningfull improvement in Sound Reproduction over my KHorns! and it was important enough to me to make every effort to obtain the Jubilee since Life is short and I wanted to enjoy them while I can.

What I wouldn't do is be irresponseable enough to talk someone else into them when they say they really like what they have now.

mike tn

[Coytee]

What I wouldn't do is be irresponseable enough to talk someone else into them when they say they really like what they have now.

Unlike me

[] [6]

Actually Mike, I don't think we'd be able to "talk" ANYONE into them given their price and girth. Most we could do is arm twist them into a listening session. If they bought a pair, they would have had to already had SOME kind of predisposition for a Khorn (or other as big).

[Deang]

Certainly more than a lateral shift I think. I don't live and die by the plots but I don't ignore them either -- and people I trust who have heard them said the bottom end kicks things up a notch. There's no replacement for displacement, and losing that flipping turn at the end has to clean things up a bit. However, my room is small, and though not really a bass freak -- have a low end that can be frightening in its own right with the right material. So I think -- is the gain in performance worth $4500 to me, and sadly, the answer for me right now is "no". I love to spend money I don't have, but this time I'm holding myself back.

[ZAKO]

On the Jubilee I definetly would not ignore the plots....Look at the added 5db at 40hz between the Jub. and the standard Khorn. Thats what the Jub group is hearing & gives it the extra SLAM...No the unit does not go one note lower but the note it plays is more definde. Thats audible.

[seti]

On the Jubilee I definetly would not ignore the plots....Look at the added 5db at 40hz between the Jub. and the standard Khorn. Thats what the Jub group is hearing & gives it the extra SLAM...No the unit does not go one note lower but the note it plays is more definde.  Thats audible.

I lack the technical angle that you guys have so I don't have the technical jargon to explain why or how but yes I thought it sound different and better. More defined and authorative are two words that came to mind after hearing them the second time.

However, I can not afford Jubilees at this point but I hope to in the future. In the next couple months I will be searching out a pair of used khorns. From Belles to Khorns and then to the Jubilee!